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Using guilt and coercion to get a date or get laid... Is this Coercive Rape?

I feel like I've been transported to a time in history I'd rather not be part of, but here we are in 2020 talking about why guilting someone into having a relationship or sex with you through manipulation and coercion is a form of rape. And the ironic thing is that it isn't just women that are having to deal with the issue of others taking away our right to decide for ourselves who we will and will not have relationships or sleep with this time, men are targets in this weird "time loop" as well.

I don't really get the logic behind some of these peoples reasoning. Calling me a man hating woman if I don't want to sleep with them as if the opposite is only true if I accept their sexual advances AND reciprocate... Where does this belief that by virtue of being you, whoever and whatever you identify as, you are entitled to anything you want from a person regardless of whether or not that person wants to give it to you? As if were play things, property to be owned with no say or control over our own lives. (hmm, this sounds familiar)

And the reason why someone doesn't want to have a romantic relationship or sex with someone isn't even relevant, or at least it shouldn't be. Am I a pinkphobe because I prefer purple? Am I a blondephobe because I prefer brunettes? Am I a hairymanphobe because I don't find men with carpets on their backs very attractive? Or do I just not find hairy backs attractive? I don't know. But the next time I go to the grocery store to buy some Jasmine tea, I'll buy some Green Tea too, even though I don't like it because it tastes like spinach water, because otherwise I'm a greenteaphobe.

#feminism #rape #womensrights #humanrights #LGBT #trans #sex #relationships #Incel

Lilu 5 July 23
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7 comments

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1

its manipulation and guilt tripping for sure

3

I think men teeter on that thin line of convincing women to have sex with them and coercing women to have sex with them. I think when you are desperate, you cross that line once in a while and no one likes doing that. I know I've done it a couple of times when I was younger where I'm trying too hard to give reasons why they should sleep with me or playfully arguing with them about having sex. Trust me, I didn't like having to do that. You feel like a car salesman trying to convince a potential buyer to buy it from you. I should have been like a Mercedes dealer, the car sells itself.

Now that I'm a bit older, I'd never do that again. If I was still dating, I'd give it an "Are you sure?" one time and that's it. I'm all about enjoyable sex and willing sex for both parties. I'm more self confident sexually and if they say no, I feel like it's their loss. It's not meant to be cocky but I take my sexual relationships seriously and pleasure for both parties seriously. Coercing sex is a desperation tactic...I'm no longer desperate.

Oh yeah I totally agree, I wouldn't even call that coercion! It's not quite what I meant. I think I need to have another read of my post and word it better.

I meant more in the context of what women and men are both experiencing right now, being made to feel guilty for not being attracted to someone. And it doesn't stop at making someone feel guilty, people are being de-platformed and livelihoods destroyed because of it. And if people are willing to do this to someone just because they're not attracted to them, I can only imagine what else this will lead to, and something like coercive rape worries me.

I think of a scenario like this. Imagine someone sees you and wants you to take them home for some fun. You say no thank you, they ask why, you say I'm sorry but I'm not attracted to you, they get upset (fair enough, no one likes rejection but it happens to everyone), so they tell you that you're a bigot and if you don't take them home and give them what they want, they'll drag your name through the mud, destroy your reputation and your livelihood.

While there haven't been any recorded instances of this happening (yet) its definitely something that should be a concern. But my question is more what would we call this? Because its not quite rape, and yet when the only option you have of not losing your job and your reputation in the community is to sleep with them, it is a way of forcing you to do something against your will. "Do this, or I'll destroy your life". So its not quite rape but something akin to it.

really great point

@ariellescarcella Thank you

0

To me, different concepts.Guilt, shameless begging, , whatever - that's a choice if you yield to it. I'm a straight male, and I have yielded to pressure of that sort from women (not ).Not a wise idea, but not all bad. It's not like I was fucking someone I disliked, or found unattractive; it just was not a good idea. On the other hand, we had fun, physical contact, whatever you want to say. Later regret from a more rational analysis does not change the reality of consent.

Coercion, to me, is a completely different concept and pretty much the opposite of consent. I am not at risk of being coerced outside of a prison setting, so on that side I don't worry about it. From my understanding - yeah, that would be rape in both the legal and realistic senses. That by definition, does not involve "consent", and I am not going to take that road. I am physically capable of it as a relatively big strong male, but it repels me. I am not even good at playing rough with a partner. I'm disgusting and more than a little slutty - but dangerous? Oh hell no.

Yes the kind of choice you’re talking about doesn’t really sound like the kind of “choice” I’m talking about. A girl coming onto you that you’re not that attracted to but then decide to go home with anyway is not the same as someone coming onto you, you saying “I’m sorry but I’m not interested”, then that person gets upset because you can’t help who you are and are not attracted to, so they drag your name through the mud and make all sorts of accusations, when you try to respond they silence you, de-platform you and it may even result in you losing your livelihood. This can easily turn into a situation where they give you the option of sleeping with them or lose your livelihood.

@Lilu That's not really consensual for my .

2

Just putting this out there, but in my line of work, I read a lot of police reports. I have read a countless number of reports about sexual coercion, which may or may not be criminal, depending on details of the incident. I have never seen or heard of a situation where a person was coerced into sex because of guilt over genital preference.

I'm not defending the argument about genital preferences, because I don't personally think it's wrong or anything-phobic to have a preference. But I think that the discussion is meant to be a broad, philosophical one, not a bullying tactic to get an uninterested person to have sex with you.

We may not be seeing cases yet but we are seeing people being cancelled, de-platformed and lose their livelihoods because they are not attracted to everyone on the planet so I am concerned that this kind of activism (which isn’t just a trans issue and isn’t just affecting women) will lead to coercing people into having sex with them in order not to lose their livelihoods. I don’t think there is anything phobic about having a preference either because it’s not a switch you can turn off and on.

3

Coercion isn't rape. Guilting isn't rape. These are ways of extracting consent. It might not be enthusiastic consent, you may hate yourself for giving in to someone's manipulation but it is consent. Regret is not rape. Calling coercion rape is like calling a ultimatum extortion or buying someone a gift as an apology bribery. Actual Rape doesn't require any manipulation tactics. It doesn't need them. It's not a way to extract consent. It doesn't care about consent. It is a total violation of someone's rights and bodily autonomy. Calling coercion rape cheapens that violation. It puts it on the same level as a charity trying to get you to donate to their cause by showing you pictures of sick kids in public.

Also, Strip clubs! There are millions of them. In big cities and in small towns. It's a 75 billion dollar worldwide industry. Less than 5 percent of strip clubs cater to a female clientele. What's the point of that little factoid? I don't think women understand the average male sexual experience. It is dominated by rejection. Unless you hit the genetic lottery, if your lucky your success rate of women receptive to your advances is going to be about 20% and maybe you'll sleep with a couple seeing is the average amount of sexual partners a man will have in his lifetime is 7. Sex is a biological need for most people and men experience so much rejection that they will spend money to watch a women simulate sex on a brass pole to help satisfy their needs. Millions of them around the world! That biological need is is like our need for food. Some people if they get a lack of food get hangery. Where they become extremely irritable and lash out randomly. That's also true with sex. Some people get hongry. Where lack of sex does the same thing. It doesn't excuse their behavior but it does explain it.

I have to agree that it isn’t quite rape but it is something akin to it. I’m not sure extortion accurately reflects the crime either. If we use the example that A pursued B but B wasn’t attracted to A, A got upset and told B that if they didn’t sleep with them, they’d tell everyone you’re lie A, lie B and lie C which would result in you losing your livelihood, so you give in, what would you call this? It’s not quite rape but extortion doesn’t quite cover it either because while it is extortion, it also resulted in you sleeping with them against your will because you only slept with A because you were left with no alternative. It was that or loose your livelihood. I’m not sure how going to strip clubs because men get horny relates to this topic though.

great point with the strip club!!! very true on the other end of the sex spectrum

3

It's certainly rape-y to pressure, guilt, and nag someone into sexual relationships with you but at the same time grown humans have to make big decisions. I've had to tell all of my progressive friends fuck off because of this subject. Telling something they are a transphobe if they won't have sex with you is no different than telling someone they will go to hell if they have sex with someone of the same sex.

2

This worries me too, I am still confused with my sexuality I knew I wasn't a gay man in that I didn't want to be a man with another man. I thought I was straight because I seemed interested in women, but then I hated my body so much I just wanted to be their friend unless I drank and shut my brain off. Which I knew was a terrible idea as I didn't want to hurt anyone. Now you are made to feel like a bad person if genitals matter to you and made to feel obligated to give them a chance. I honestly don't know how this isn't seen as a negative effect.

I know its like we're living in opposite land. It's one thing to be upset that someone you're attracted to isn't attracted to you, no ones immune to this. Including people who are considered societies most desirable. But its another to demand that they be attracted to you, as if that's something that a person can even control. And even if you could, no one has a right to tell you who you should or shouldn't be attracted to. No one likes the feeling of rejection but its part of life unfortunately.

The thing is that no one is exempt from rejection. Because you want something doesn't mean you deserve it. The world is a huge place and there are people who exclusively like transpeople . There are dating sites for it, too. There is no need for anyone to feel pressured. That's just wrong.

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