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I would like to ask some advice. I run a men's group on Facebook. It's an issues discussion group, not a group just for men, as there are people of all kinds involved, but largely its very IDW in political ideology. Lots of moderate and centrist folks. I have a member of the group that I'm online friends with who has a severe drug and alcohol problem. He's also really funny and really smart, but he posts often with bitter (if somewhat humorous) rants about "white girls" and how vapid and entitled and cruel an obnoxious they are. He drives an Uber, so he basically comes in contact with lots of these types of women, in their early 20s, who are "too good" to date him. So he hates them, but he also wishes he could date them. Long story short, his rants were getting a bit much. We're pretty tolerant, but we draw the line at someone who single mindedly bashes any group, be that blacks, whites, men, women, Muslims, Christians or what have you. We're pretty MRA, but we keep the group open minded as much as possible. Long story short, he got kicked out.

He and I have been chatting for a couple of years now off and on and he is pleading with me to be let back in, siting the group as a sort of lifeline where he can say how he really feels. He was an active contributor to getting kicked out. Basically giving the middle finger to an admin and ignoring our requests to tone it down. I sometimes have this issue with people struggling with drug addiction and mental health. There is the issue, or the disease, and then there is a level of childishness or unhealthiness that comes along with the issue or disease. He is using his illness to manipulate me into letting him back in by saying its the only thing he has. Its not my call, but I don't like it when people use their lot in life as a tool to manipulate my pity or as a threat (I'll get worse if you don't let me do XYZ).

I told him he actively participated in his own banning from the group when he refused to heed warnings and doubled down. My question is when is a boundary too harsh for someone who is struggling? Are strong boundaries beneficial to people in dark places? I already feel a bit of nagging guilt over him being kicked out, but I have several other people in my life that have used mental health or drug addiction as an excuse to be insufferable and manipulative. Where have you drawn the line in the past? Am I being too harsh?

Fayerweather 4 Mar 30
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@Fayerweather First of all, I'd like to express my sympathy for the situation you find yourself in, nobody should ever be made to suffer for having tried to be a friend.

I'll try to keep this short, it's not my favourite topic. I was a drunk once, I was a drunk for a long time. And during that time, I managed to 'have it all'. I drank almost every day, but I also had a job, a nice wife, a home with a manageable mortgage and, eventually, two beautiful kids. But, as time went by and without my really noticing it, the drinking began to chip away at my life. I was on a couple of bottles of brandy a day by the end. Yes, that much. And when the end came (commonly known as hitting rock bottom), it came very suddenly. Within the space of about a month, I lost my wife and kids, my job, my home, my friends, and the sympathy of my birth-family. The lot.

And then came the 'black plastic bag moment'. I woke up one morning not knowing where I was or how I had got there. It was a hostel for homeless alcoholics and I had been dumped there by the Police, who were getting pretty tired of picking me up out of the gutter, and had decided that I was now a 'charity case'. I will always be grateful for the charity I received there, and it undoubtedly made a great contribution to my eventual recovery ... but the really important thing, probably the most important thing that's ever happened in my life, was this: As I sat there, horribly hungover, in my dirty,stinking clothes, not a friend in the world and everything I owned stuffed into a black plastic bag at my feet, I realized the truth of myself. Almost everyone I knew, especially those closest to me, had been telling me for years that I was heading for disaster. My wife had told me a hundred times that I was losing her. And I had ignored, or laughed off, every warning. Suddenly, like I had just invented the very notion of 'personal responsibility', I realized that they couldn't ALL be wrong. If everybody in my world had abandoned me, it must mean that I had got it wrong. That I had created the hell in which I now existed, and that I was the only one who could get myself out of there. I summed it up later like this. It was my hand which lifted the glass to my lips, so it must be my decision to stop, or I'm doomed.

It took a long time. The above all happened in 1987, and I didn't sober up fully till 1996. It was a long, hard, and painful struggle, but I made it. I haven't regained the relationships I lost, I haven't seen MrsX or the kids for 30 years. But I do love, and am loved now. And if I did ever meet MrsX again, I would thank her, sincerely, for what she did, for kicking me out of her life, and for ensuring that my children didn't grow up with a drunken father. It's a hard thing to think, that my kids were better of without me all along, but I believe they were. And I am thankful for it.

Stay strong @Fayerweather , you have my very best wishes.

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It is essential that you set clear and consistent boundaries in the same way that you would in the raising of a child. It is also essential for him to learn that actions have consequences.

Rather than imposing a permanent ban, it may help him more if you impose a time-limited ban based upon him moderating his behaviour and seeking help such as with NA. A written report of his experience of such help - for discussion in the group - could then be made a condition of his re-admittance.

Of most concern, however, is the news that he drives an Uber while having a drug and alcohol problem! To what kind of risk are his passengers being exposed? At what risk is he of being caught and charged for DUI? He needs to seek help not only for his own good, but for all those with whom he comes into contact.

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Utlitmately, he has not and is probably terrified of facing the things in his life that are destroying it. His own guilt from the predicament his has placed his life in, has reached a threshold. It is often the case that such a threshold would hold awakening ...for some. But his denial of his own culpability in his "getting the boot", is a sure sign that he is not ready to return. He will slip even further the next time.

I unfortunately agree. If he can't acknowledge and take responsibility for the way his behavior is affecting himself and those around him, at all (and he didn't), he's in a narrow minded and biased place.

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Let me ask a question in return: Whatever he did, whatever he said, was it worth a "lifetime ban"? In other words, the FB death penalty?

Maybe you can get together with the admins of the group and set up some kind of criteria for behaviors or statements that would merit that kind of treatment, and then stick to those rules, perhaps reviewing them from time to time ... and maybe even offering invitations to those who had been earlier removed for offenses that are not now considered so severe. (But watch out for that, too. If you decide that a certain class of statement should earn the lifetime ban, then why would that change much, either?)

I actually didn't ban him for life. I told him more than once that he can come back if he chills out on the white girl anger posts. He said he doesn't want to be where he's not wanted and sees his posts as venting and as necessary. I actually am not all that upset with his posts in a broader sense. But also in a broader sense, they are spreading a bad vibe in my group.

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I will be answering as a bleeding heart who has had many people in my life go through drug/alcohol addition:

You absolutely were not too harsh to kick him out. It needed to happen. On the other hand, if the group really is something that he needs, then you can let him back in and see if he can play by the rules. It will be obvious rather quickly, if the experience has allowed him to get ahold of his emotions.

Where is he in his recovery? If he is actively working it, people have to allow him a chance to re-enter his own life or he will become even more desperate.

You must be firm with addicts. Set boundaries and follow up with your own rules. You also must allow them to recover.

BTW, "White Girls" is not racist. It is another term for "Mean Girls". They can be of any race or color. It is the attitude that they hold and it is abhorrent. My girls used that term a lot when they were in High School. Not saying it is a good thing, but it may be a different thing than you understand if you do not have kids in middle and high school.

I really like your comments and suggestions, DLearn, re: this matter. Guess I'm a bit of a bleeding heart too, always hoping for good outcomes for any and all of us with our own special needs or weaknesses. A difficult case for Fayerweather who must deal with his outbursts. I am hoping he considers her and the group's inclusion for what they are - acceptance and an opportunity to be a part of a social group. Yet he needs to understand and try to abide by the group's rules. Wishing Fayerweather and her troubled group member all the best.

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You know him, I do not. But, I would like to see some way where he can repent (again). Maybe a written apology to the group. Then, for each meeting, have him write something positive about the group or someone in it.

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I am not a therapist so what I may say is of limited use. On the other hand, I have had to deal with individuals with both moderate mental health problem (ex-wife had a nasty case of borderline personality disorder, but we won't go there) along with drinkers and drug users. You and the other members of the group gave the man a crutch by demonstrating more tolerance for his behavior than you would a total stranger. Then you took that crutch away and he wants it back. Now you worry if you are doing the right thing. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that individuals should be responsible for their behavior and that behavior has consequences?

If this man has been misbehaving and now your group has rejected him and he wants back in, then he has learned nothing. Obviously this man does not want to change, why should he if he can get what he wants from you and your group. People with addiction problems have to "hit bottom" before they can make that decision in life to change their behavior. It may be a truism, but ask any recovering drug abuser or alcoholic. Do the man a favor and cut all contact. You are not responsible for his life.

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Absolutely not. When you’re in active addiction manipulation is really you’re only tool.. Addiction is based in selfishness. Whatever consequences befall the addict for their behavior is of their own doing. He needs to go to a NA meeting. At least 1 a day for the first 90 days. That should be his support group not a FB page.

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You're not being harsh, and he brought that on himself. He still sounds like a competent adult, and once he was warned he should have acted on it, but instead chose to keep it up until he got banned. I have no sympathy for folks like that either. Carry on, I think you're doing the right thing.

Thanks. I am a big proponent of self responsibility and I get really irritated when people try to foist responsibility 100% away from themselves, but sometimes I feel like I'm being harsh

@Fayerweather I am impressed with your efforts and energy devoted to a support group. In the above thread I commended to DLearn for her comments, which align with my feelings and thoughts about this challenging case of yours. I agree with those above who say give him another chance; however, as also was noted, make sure there is, if not already, posted rules with consequences for breaking those rules, as is done in grade school. He is in need of special help. It's also unfair to you and the group to have to deal with all his issues. I'm sure you've encouraged him to get individual counseling. After so many chances I do understand how you may feel you must close the door; especially if the mayhem and impact from his outbursts on the group are too destructive. So, all in all, this comment isn't very definitive, but simply restates your dilemma, and revealing my hope that you, the group, and this troubled man all have good outcomes. For the troubled young man, he will learn by trial and error, with the resulting consequences, in or out of your group.

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