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Answer these two questions about Eleanor Roosevelt's UN charter of Human rights and ask yourself if she is not confused about whether they are the rights of an individual or what should be owed the individual by a caring, sharing, compassionate society or any society.

Do you think healthcare, shelter, food clothing are individual rights? Or are they rights someone else thinks everyone should have because it is a moral responsibility that any civilized society would provide?

It is fine if there is abundance in times of scarcity, though it is an impossibility for the state or society to provide these "rights" under all circumstances. And we are currently headed for a time of scarcity as our politicians are morally bankrupt because they have not kept in their personal ethics. Political opportunity provides the politician with foreknowledge in many areas and that makes for privilege others do not have. This political privilege that can enrich the politician will result in a guilt that begs self-correction and we see him wishing to make amends by providing something to those he represents - free education, free healthcare, free phones. It endears the voter to them, salves their guilt but also gives them more control and power and incidentally more privilege. Why that's convenient! Never ask anything of a politician except for him to do his job. Ask him for help and, as H.L. Mencken noted, "you will get it good and hard".

Many politicians today are not even qualified to do their job. The job itself has become one of seeking privilege, protection and status. There are few honorable men in politics today - and, thanks to those global - hell bent upon "re-imagining" civilization ideologues that politicians have attached themselves to, it is even more about the privilege and status than proper governing. Too bad. So sad.
All because politicians want to hide their personal indiscretions and in some cases crimes. Are the globalists promising them an immortal legacy? They, instead will live in infamy.

FrankZeleniuk 8 June 20
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A Man Said to the Universe

BY STEPHEN CRANE

A man said to the universe:
“Sir, I exist!”

“However,” replied the universe,

“The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.”

iThink Level 9 June 20, 2022

Enlightened self interest. The universe has no self interest.

4

Poor Eleanor was confused. Being married to FDR she thought she was a queen rather than First Lady. And she probably read about “life, liberty, and property” as rights and thought she could be more specific. No, health care, food, clothing, shelter are not rights because if they were then someone would have to provide them to you without cost to you. And that means that person would be your slave. Last time I checked that was morally wrong.

@NewbieMAGA That’s not at all what the Declaration of Human Rights asserts. If you think the right to food, clothing and shelter means these things can’t be taken away from you once you have them, then I’m certainly OK with that.

The problem is that liberty is tried to health, food, clothing and shelter. If you don't have those things your ability to participate in society is limited.

The first question to tackle is what does liberty mean. For the sake of argument assume it is roughly synonymous with freedom. Freedom to do what you desire or at least what you "need" to do. Of course there are restrictions. Some imposed to maintain social order, other restrictions are simply a matter of the resources available to you. Those resources may be restricted by poverty, your intelligence, mental and physical health, or the society to which you belong. Your responsibilities also place restrictions on your ability to use the resources you have available. For example some people have children, elderly parents or other dependents that use their resources. One often additional limitation on freedom is dependency.

In the mythology of North American freedom one group of men stand out, the trapper/ Mountain man. How free exactly were these men? First you have to describe their dependency. They depended on the complex culture they left behind for guns, lead, traps, powder, salt, utensils, tools, horses, mules, trade items, and knowledge. Often they depended on native wives for clothing, cooking, medicine and communication. Past dependence there are other restrictions on movement imposed by native tribes, weather, the vagaries of nature, geography, age and other infirmities, the fads of fashion, and competition. Freedom it turns out is always a trade off.

As a practical matter freedom has more to do with free from than free to. In the US tradition that means free from excessive taxation, regulation, conscription for foreign wars, class restrictions, religious persecution, censorship, restrictions on movement, etc. Although we think of rights as positive in practice they are restriction on the power of the powerful in many cases.

Because of the way complex societies function freedom is self reinforcing. The more freedom your average citizen has the more freedom will evolve. This has a lot to do with resources. The more resources the average citizen has the more freedom the average citizen will acquire. Provided they don't trade security for freedom. Free people it turns out our risk takers.

One of the ironies is that the more free the average person is the less free the rich are. All social interactions are both trade offs and compromises. A society of rich and poor means the poor can't impose on the freedoms of the rich as much as a middle class. The poor for example don't move to suburbs and crowd out estates. The poor don't vacation to the beaches the rich have houses near. This is the third point about freedom because it is always about who's freedom. That may seem to contradict the principle that freedom is self reinforcing but that is in the aggregate.

There are a lot more complexity than I have covered. Consideration has to be given to resource limits and population density for example. As a rule of thumb however giving resources to the poor and bringing them into the middle class expands the liberty of the middle class but weakens the upper class. Bread and circus is the rich and powerfuls sollution.

@wolfhnd
Very useful discussion thank you.

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