What “evolutionist” has ever claimed that there is no life outside earth?

God did not speak 2000 years ago either (Christian gods)... nor 1600 years ago (Islam)... nor 3600 years ago (Judaism)... nor 4000 years ago (Hinduism) nor 2400 years (Buddhism).

Humans made it all up. Or at least all of the above except just ONE made it all up... so which one did not make it up?
Or...they ALL made it up.
Occam’s razor?

@Hanno So you were there? You know because you were there that God never spoke? That's why it's called 'faith', because none of us were there, so it can't be proven true or false. You have no faith that it happened, and I do. That doesn't make either of us a lesser or greater person than the other, just different.

And yes, the image in this post (or shall I say what's written on the image) implies that the entire universe is bereft of life: "God created all this just to have a personal relationship with you and yet you inhabit..." blah blah. I say it implies that, because that's what I took from it. Not everyone will take away the same thing when it's not blatantly stated.

@jamesdomus1861
Interesting, the picture shows the thousands of stars and hundreds of thousands of potential sites for life, just in one galaxy out of uncountable ... talks about gods and your expectations of gods... and you somehow derive that the claim is that the universe is void of all life?

In my view it says the opposite... their is a tremendous probability of more life out there. Ours are most likely not unique. Are the gods also gods to the other life out there or just to us?

I will grant you the right to interpret the way you want however that is a steep logical jump there.

It is your interpretation though so I can only comment that to me it is a jump and others can disagree.
I am sure you may have the same criticism on my interpretation.

@jamesdomus1861
Regarding gods speaking to us.
My simple point is as follows:
There are over 4000 gods presenting over 1000 beliefs.
They almost all claim two things:

1. God spoke to them.
2. They are the only true religion.

The best case scenario for you is that gods exist and they have spoken to one of those 1000+ religions.
That means that at least 999+ are lying, since they claim to be the only one, only 1 can be true.

So how do you know your selected religion is the 1 in 999 that has not lied about god speaking to it. They all claim miracles and secret or unique knowledge.

If gods in fact spoke to more than one belief, why did the gods lie to them and told them they are only one?

So you can analyse this any way you want.
The conclusion is always the same, the vast majority of beliefs must have lied about god speaking to them.

Applying Occam’s razor or any other logical tool you will come to the conclusion that all 1000 lied.

You can also just study each beliefs teachings and scripture and you will find none of them are unique, and they are poor moral guidelines and useless at providing any real technical or scientific advice... you know, the stuff you would expect a god would teach you.

When was the last time any god communicated with anyone?

@Hanno Erm, well...I am responding to the meme's idea about having a personal relationship. I have translated that to "communicate".

Still, do you feel that you have presented an argument? Just because you haven't communicated with a God...and don't know of anyone that has....that doesn't mean it never it happened.

What if I replied: "The day before last, God told me what to write here." Would that be meaningful to you? It would certainly answer your question !

@Setright
And I would rightly request that you prove your claim.

The Bible is full of people doing amazing things to prove their claims.
Moses and his snake/staff.
Gideon with his fleece being dry and wet.
Elisha and Elija.
Jesus and all his miracles.

I have no issue with gods being able to communicate with trillions of individuals at once at all.
My issue is any proof that she actually communicated with anyone ever.

You can scroll up a bit where I tried to explain James Domus my point on gods speaking to numerous religions who all claim that they were the only people gods spoke to. So everyone except one of them are lying.

No one has ever shown that they actually communicated with gods.

Just because I hear voices or tell you that I hear voices does not make the voices real. (Other than being created inside your own head).

Until someone actually can show they communicated with gods... I do not even have to present an argument.

@Hanno You mean absence of proof, is proof of absence?

This is a philosophical/semantic question, but please define what you mean by "prove".

Do you have to be able to hear the communication that another person has? See it? Feel it? Taste it? Smell it?

Or do you want someone to ask God about events in the future, relay them to you, and when things happen as predicted, you accept that as proof?

Or do you require for the basic laws of physics to be broken, before your eyes? So I would need to levitate? Or turn water into wine?

Or do you have to see God manifest in the physical world? Assuming you would know what God looked like

Proving that things fall to the ground is simple and repeatable. More abstract things, even those that aren't supernatural, can be very hard to prove to everyone's satisfaction.

How does a parent prove they love their children? Taking care of them, and raising them doesn't prove they love them, it just shows they know how to care for helpless little human beings.
How can they prove they feel the feeling I consider "love"?

What if a close friend or relative of yours, whom you trust and know to be as agnostic as yourself, were to experience something that convinced them that the universe was created by a conscious creative force? Would you reject that, and demand first hand evidence?

@Setright
Well I have personally seen a pink unicorn in my garden levitating two feet of the ground who turned this bottle of wine from a glass of water and he told me that everyone should deposit $100 in my bank account so I can build him a temple for my wife who also saw this and turned back from the dead last Thursday when she electrocuted herself with her hairdryer and she was told that their will be an earthquake in New Zealand the next day and this all happened on Friday, so we have proof so please send $100.

@Setright
This is NOT a semantical/philosophical question.

If you are to believe something without proof why are you not a Hindu? Or a a Buddhist? Why don’t you worship Zeus or Jupiter.

I mean if you are just going to believe something told to you without proof, you can believe anything.
Why only Christianity?

You are a Christian because that is what you were told first as a small child, if you were born to Muslim parents you would be a Muslim.

That is why more than 98% of people are still in the religion they are born into, yet they all claim they are the “only” religion. It has nothing to do with faith or being the true religion, it is where you were born.

@Hanno Oh dear, you are locked into your fixed views. You are also conflicting religion with God. Let me clarify that this discussion is only about whether or not a God exists. Not the human teachings related to God and where you might have been born. Is there a unifying, creative force behind the universe? I would say yes. That doesn't mean anyone has to do specific things on certain days, be afraid of that force and certainly not consider persecuting anyone else for not believing that force exists.

You also didn't answer my question regarding what is "proof" to you.

I was born in a Christian country, yes. I spent my formative years, from age 6 til 18, in Singapore which is quite a melting pot of cultures and religions. My mind and views have been exposed to many beliefs. I can say that Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism resonate most with me. For many reasons, but fundamentally because all teach love and forgiveness. No matter why you practice both, they are sound principles to base your behavior on.

On the unicorn: If THEY existed, then people would see them. A horse with a horn is not quite as elusive as a supreme being that doesn't manifest physically

@Hanno

Let me ask you this: Do you really believe that the universe we occupy just randomly came into existence? A microscopic false vacuum popped into existence from nowhere, and then exploded violently when it collapsed on itself?

From nowhere, untold amounts of matter just appeared and slowly settled into groups, began rotating so different elements could collect according to atomic weight. Cooled down, assembled themselves into life bearing globes. Upon which life appeared, again out of nowhere. First in very simple forms. These were then so bad at replicating themselves, despite their inherent simplicity, that they mutated into complex living beings with sensory organs. First unable to live only in water, until some of them decided it was time to try something different?

I am a mechanical engineer, and I although I know the theory of evolution, the above does seem almost as far fetched as the idea of a God.

Science cannot explain what was before the Big Bang. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen that way, of course.

What I mean is, that most of the science related to how the universe was created is far beyond most of our understanding.

@Setright
Fixed views?

I was born in a Christian household and spent 3 decades as a evangelical.
I walked the road and evaluated many views and came after much study, talking to many people and much thought and analysis to an agnostic viewpoint.

I am the exact sample of NOT having fixed views... and still don’t have any.

You on the other hand: were your parents Christians?
Have you ever had any view different to what your parents brain washed you in?
Yeah... fixed views eh?
You believe in gods because your parents told you so and you NEVER questioned them.
You are the perfect example of fixed views.
I changed mine, have you ever?

And yes, just like no one has ever seen my pink unicorn, so has no one ever seen any god.
Your gods don’t manifest physically because they, just like my pink unicorn don’t exist.

@Setright
On proof:
I have set my standards very low... the board is clear.
ANY evidence will do. As long as it cannot be explained by normal science or chance or maybe’s,
I would accept it. I promise this.

I said this decades ago and say it again. I will believe any of your gods if you can prove it and and can’t suit down your “proofs” in 4 minutes.
I am still waiting...

@Setright
Then on the creation of the universe.
There is absolutely no reason why we need a god for this to have happened.
Big Bang does not claim the universe came from nothing. We can estimate what has happened within the first few milliseconds after the start.
You cannot even estimate when Jesus was born. (Yeah, NOT 25 December) or 0AD.

Just as science cannot yet explained what happened before the Big Bang, so can you not explain that through your god hypothesis.
“God did it”. You just made that up.
At least science is honest and say we don’t know, it is possible that it is impossible to know do to the nature of time.
However to claim “goddidit!” when you have no idea yourself is patently dishonest.

Big Bang never says it “randomly happened”. It is a consequence of uncertainty theory that we are considering it. We still don’t know... however it is based in observations and understanding... not wishful thinking.

You obviously don’t know much about evolution. Their are very good candidates for abiogenesis and there is abundant proof for it.

Let’s compare evolution with “goddidit”.
Evolution: millions of pieces of evidence confirmed by geology, chemistry, physics, maths, palaeontology, etc etc.
God: nothing, zilch, zero evidence.

Almost as far fetched? At least you concede that the existence of gods is a far fetched wishful thinking exercise..

@Setright
And finally, and this important.
I am happy for you to believe whatever you want.
I have no goal to convert you agnosticism.
However you cannot claim you “goddidit” or force your beliefs on any one else.

It is your beliefs and that is all to it is and whatever you believe has no place in law or schools or anywhere else other than your own home and church.

And then we will occasionally joke about the your beliefs and burn some of your holy cows... but that is just the we unbelievers are... sorry.

@Hanno Yes fixed views. You are claiming to know things about me and accusing me of things.

If you actually read what I wrote, instead of knee-jerking a reaction, you would see that I have an open mind, have never been indoctrinated as you suggest, and indeed do not condone forcing any religious views upon anyone.

You seem to have confused me with someone else!

@Setright
Lol!
I made no statements about you neither made any accusation nor claims. I made my position clear so there is no confusion.
I did exactly the opposite. I made MY position clear on religion and where it sits.

It is English language own problem that their is no differentiation between single and plural you.
I was referring my views on religion and religious people in general and it is important to understand if we are to have any discussions
Funny how people always accuses others for their own behaviour. So pull your own knee back from being jerked.

In the mean time I will patiently wait for you to produce a single peace of evidence that any gods exist.

@Hanno Are you certain you didn't write this:

"You believe in gods because your parents told you so and you NEVER questioned them."

@Hanno

Vis-a-vis proof. Have you seen first hand proof that the universe is almost 15 billion years old?

Don't worry, I believe that too. It's just that you have accept that is a belief. I know it builds on some sound scientific principles, but I wouldn't claim to truly know or understand the details that prove it.

Do leptons and quarks exist? I have never seen either. I do know that at least some scientists claim they exist, at least in theory, and are useful in describing our physical world.

Essentially, I am not challenging your right to think that the concept of any form of God is ridiculous. What I am asking is that you consider whether or not you judge "proof" through your views.

I do too, it's almost impossible not to do so - but especially on the God question, I find it interesting to consider how many things we simply "believe", without any first hand tangible proof.

Most people find it easy to reject "supernatural" experiences. If the cannot find a 3 dimensional/5 sense explanation, they can always reject it with "I must have imagined it" or similar.

In fact, I am leaning more and more toward our whole experience here on earth as quite possibly being one big delusion. A dream. A simulation. Call it what you will

@Setright
On your comment what I wrote:
That was a direct response to you claiming I have fixed views.
You did exactly what you claimed I did:
You made claims about me having fixed views when you knew nothing of me. Then complained when I did exactly the same.
That’s called hypocrisy.

However fair enough. I did made that claim then. I meant it in general that people believe whatever their parents taught them and still believe that, and should not have been specific about you.
I was not clear on that so fair enough.

However: was I wrong?
Have you ever changed your views from what your parents indoctrinated you with?

You were wrong about me having fixed views and I proved it quickly. So prove me wrong.

I also answered your questions. I explained what I see as proof. I answered if I had an argument and formulated it for you. I answered your question if someone made a claim about speaking to god with my unicorn example. I covered everything you asked what proof could be with a simple paragraph about my own made up god. I answered your questions about the big
bang and evolution.
If there are any questions I have missed, repeat them and I will answer.

You still have to answer my questions though.
When last did any god communicated with anyone?
What proof do you have that any god exist?
Why are you a Christian and not a Hindu?
Do you still have the same religion as your parents?

@Setright
On your last post on 15 billion years...
I don’t believe that the universe is that old or that quarks and leptons exist.
I don’t believe at all.
I accept those things based on the science and math I can do myself.
I also accept that much of this could be wrong if we got the math wrong .
We were wrong in the past... and will be in the future.

For now our understanding points to the fact universe is that old and that those particles exist.
Ditto on evolution.

Do you see the difference between believing something without evidence and accepting something based on our understanding of observations (which can be construed as proof)?

@Setright

This also implies that if you or science can prove that gods exist I will be compelled to believe (or rather accept) that gods exist based on the strength of the proofs.

@Hanno

Where, and to an extent when, you were born does have profound influence on the religion(s) you are exposed to. That is obvious. Indeed, an open-minded Christian priest like Wilhelm Wexels rejected the idea that you had to be Christian to be accepted into heaven. A controversial view, that attracted a lot of negativity from his peers. He saw the randomness, and tried to explain that any caring God would welcome all his "children" back home - Christian, Jewish, Muslim or heretic. I digress!

Mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics all describe the tangible world we live in. In my view, the existence of God doesn't contradict any of that. The universe is what it is, and the rules are as they are - doesn't matter who or what made it.

I think it's obvious that the universe is billions of years old, and has evolved since the big bang. I would never suggest that God just created all the planets and the life here, in a flash. I think that the big bang was started by God. From there, science can explain all the things we observe with our 5 senses and 4 dimensions. (3 physical, 1 time...lets leave the others out of this).

6th sense observations cannot be explained by science at the moment, all it can do is reject them.

I suppose that is where our views differ. You see no scientific evidence and reject. I believe (yes, believe) that evidence is forthcoming.

@Setright
The belief that god may have created the Big Bang is fair.
However since our current understanding suggests that it is not possible to see past the Big Bang, it is not very useful other than from a philosophical point of view.

There is also no link to this probable god and the gods we have worshipped here on earth.
This probable god could be as easily be Zeus or Buddha or any other or none whatsoever.

We have been waiting for proof scientifically for hundred of years and philosophically for thousands.

I have had many discussions with both theologians and physicists alike what would such a proof would be... and there is no common ground between the current definitions of god and what science can test for.
The only one concept that might work is that something caused the Big Bang and that something is god. And that is not terribly useful as it says nothing about the existence of god now or if it has any affect on us or care about us at all.