Which is more disgusting;

Weinstein "taking advantage" of women who will do anything for a chance at fame and fortune in the entertainment business

OR

women willing or at least consenting to suck an old mans cock in order to play him into giving her entree' into the world of fame and fortune known as the entertainment business?

@iThink I think they are equally culpable and disgusting.

@GolfLady
ok then. But you can't hate on Weinstein for his part any more than you should hate on the women who exploit their own sexuality in pursuit of what Weinstein has to offer them - potentially.

The way I see it those trysts/liaisons are quid pro quo...how and why do you suppose Monica Lewinski managed to get semen residue on her blue evening gown?

What do you suppose those women in the Weinstein case truly thought was going to happen when they consented to go out with him, dine with him and "meet" with him in a hotel suite or maybe alone in his office or his own home...quid pro quo - could be construed to be another way of saying "prostitution".

The women IMHO are angry because they gave up something to Weinstein expecting something more than what they got in return. So while the proverbial iron is hot - while there was a fever pitch frenzy for outing and punishing "powerful men" for their sexual trysts with "hopeful" pretty young women Weinstein go caught up in the net.

Please understand I am not defending Weinstein so much as I am asking for some perspective and balance in the matter. I for one and a bit weary of how our culture implicitly and impulsively regards women as either victims or potential victims when in fact they (women) are not nor have they ever been any more innocent or vulnerable than their male counterparts in their pursuits of certain things - generally material wealth, fame, power and of course sexual contact.

The movie business is a business and its two major products are pretty young women and violence. Sex and violence - whether we admit it or not are very closely intertwined aspects of the human psyche. There is a reason we throng by the millions to witness acts of violence played out on the sporting arenas and the sexual energies depicted in nearly every visual and aural frame of the movies and now video games. It is primal - in short it "turns us on"

It vicariously whets our own appetites for sex and violence.

Women are just as mercenary and predatory as are men - they just go about pursuing their game differently. Men are more overt about it women are more manipulative. Men want sex with women - women want the status and wealth men possess. It's an ugly yet undeniable reality of the grown up world of boy meets girl.

@iThink wow... that’s a lot... so I can’t speak to The Hollywood cesspool as I am not familiar with that. But I will say that I don’t believe All women partake willingly. I do believe that there are women who do quid pro quo knowing exactly what they are getting into. I don’t believe all women are innocent and we should simply believe. But I believe for reasons you already stated that it happens everywhere and it’s all about the power.

I have worked in corporate America for 25 years and have been “sexually harassed” twice. (I use quotes because I really don’t know anymore what it even means)... all the rules have changed). The first time was my boss. Coincidentally when I worked in a large recognizable entertainment company. He was in our NY office and I was remote running a call center on the west coast. When he came to town I was expected to spend all my time with him. I was young, single, & 27... I hated it but he was my boss so I could only make up excuses for so long... everything was cool for a year and a half... then he started talking about what a life we could have together if we combined our incomes... worked in my office directly across from me even though he had a separate office. he was having marriage troubles at the time so he came to town every week. He invited me to go to Vegas on his Frequent flier points. And the moment I figured out that he was wanting more from me then work I clearly and respectful set the record straight. I was not interested and he should not think about me in any other way than an employee. He was pissed. At 2 years, I got the first bad review I have ever received. (Still to this day). And I went to HR... (I know... I was young) they investigated and he had invited another male co worker to Vegas as well, so the fact that he invited me was nothing. And he was just talking shit about our incomes. So net net... I quit and moved back home. Career over in that industry because I had interviewed with another company to do the same type job, same industry and nada. A few years later I found out that he had done the same thing to my replacement. Could I have just gone with it? Sure, but that is a loosing proposition when you aren’t in the power position. It is more about power than sex. And most importantly I was raised with morals, values, and integrity.

The second time was a pure power move. My peer (director level) and I were in a disagreement about something (don’t recall what). In a meeting one day between just him and I he says you are a beautiful woman and I don’t want to be distracted so put a jacket on... and no I wasn’t dressed inappropriately it was an insurance company... wtf? I said shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my office. He was pissed from then on. I told our boss that I did not want to be in meetings with him alone anymore. Because for me when you are working it’s work. And that’s it, just work. He was a tech genius switching the old antiquated system to new technology and more valuable, I got fired. Again a year later I discovered he had done this to other women and he finally got fired. I got a lawyer and forced a higher payoff. Again I wasn’t in the power position. the power position always wins, every time.

Than said, I’m literally nobody and have had my career halted twice. And this type of thing happens all the time to people not in the power position.... it’s all about who has the power.

I suspect there are many women who can tell you stories about a co worker or a boss overstepping. Most men have the power position which is why I think me too went crazy... but I am aware that it can go both ways. But those in power can act however they want And treat others however they want because they have the money and power to buy themselves out of anything. (Epstein). Harvey went huge because while some women most likely knew his quid pro quo reputation and went willingly, there are some who didn’t know or didn’t go Completely willingly. So seeing him fall is satisfying. Some Women probably felt they had no other option in order to get work. If I had to venture a guess, I would say 15-20% knew what it was and was comfortable with it, 30-50 knew what it was and needed the money or work but hated every second of it, and 25-30% were not willing but we’re forced.

For me, seeing anyone in a power position fall after they treated someone like nothing is both satisfying and sad. We will never know the true numbers because HR and Lawyers ensure no one talks. And it is humiliating and embarrassing to have gone through it and if other employers find out they won’t hire you simply because they have no idea if it was you or him so you can’t publicly talk about it. so you internalize it and withdraw from society and stay home on a Friday night writing to strangers.....

@MommaDaggs

thanks for sharing your story - I did not intend to impugn "all women". One huge problem is that "sexual harassment" is easy to accuse and almost impossible to prove. The practice or the idea that "all women should be believed" is ridiculously arbitrary. It leaves men in an indefensible position.

Again, I am not defending Weinstein. Don't know the man but he seems pretty creepy to me but he doesn't seem to have difficulty finding "dance partners" either.

He is not fortunate in the "looks" or sex appeal department - and now he's old too. So he managed to get himself in a prime position of power where he can lord over pretty and desirable young women.

By the time a pretty girl/woman is 18 years old she already knows (even if she tricks herself into not recognizing it) that her looks and sex appeal opens doors for her that otherwise would not open.

If an old ugly toad like H Weinstein invites a pretty young thing out or up to his suite or into his private office does she really think he is interested in her "acting chops"? I can see where women (just as men do) can rationalize almost anything when in pursuit of something they desperately want - like a part in a big movie production for example.

Unless the females "done wrong" by Harvey Weinstein were VERY young (like well below age 17) and very naive, I really have a hard time finding sympathy for them.

You say it's more about power than anything else. To that I say yes Weinstein wanted power and he found power - but to what end.
For men especially, power means status and that leads to access to high value (see gorgeous and young) females.

Harvey Weinstein and other ugly old toads like him don't want to be good ole uncle Harvey...they want the sexual contact with women they otherwise could NEVER EVER hope to attract. And high value women KNOW this. We see examples of this all the time.

You really think those hot, gorgeous young women feel real love for those rich old codgers who marry them? LOL! nope...not in a million years. But certainly in a billion dollars and the lifestyle to comes with.

@iThink agree with the correlation of rich men and young hot women. I’d like to believe it isn’t all about the money, but it’s difficult to get there. With HW, I don’t think all of those women thought that the only way to work on his movies was to screw him. Not all of them. I think if you have experienced being on the low side of the power equation then you may have an idea of what could happen. But if you had never been exposed to that quid pro quo before, then you wouldn’t automatically assume it because you wouldn’t know. These days with the internet and literally everything out there to discover, then yes, just about everyone who met with him knew the deal. I sort of figure that there has to be a % of women that had not expected what could have happened especially if he uses predatory techniques, which it seems like he had mastered. (I have to catch a plain so stop by the hotel) We aren’t all created and raised equal. How you were raised, where you were raised, IQ, EQ, social status, what experiences you have had... it all plays a part in what you think and believe. Then there is common sense which not everyone was blessed with,

I don’t believe that by 18 you know looks and sex appeal will open doors for you. Maybe these days there are more young girls that are aware because they have seen it or read about it. But just going through high school and having the multitude of insecurities that girls have makes me think that it’s older than that.

There were some women who told him to F off. They got blacklisted and didn’t get as much work. Which is wrong too. It’s just a F’d up world these days. Money and power give people the upper hand to take advantage of those with nothing.

@MommaDaggs
Why do you suppose attractive, young "aspiring actresses" consent to meet, dine with, "party with", spend time alone with that toad HW?
Do you think they find him irresistibly attractive? Looking at him do you get the feeling that "here is a verile stud" - "I'd like to have his babies"....NOOOOOO.

HW has something the women wanted so badly.that they were willing to put themselves into compromising situations.

Weinstein made himself "the bait" by having the power to bestow or to grant opportunities for those women that otherwise they would not have. Quid pro quo.

You are definitely right - common sense is NOT common and it is a very F'd up world.

@iThink agreed... he had something they wanted, but it sure as hell was not sex! It’s one thing to party with, meet with, dine with, that happens in business all the time. But it is supposed to stop there... if you are in sales, you take clients out and meet and dine all the time. However one shouldn’t have to sell Or trade their bodies in order to get anything. And one shouldn’t be punished if they say F off...
I think there were more than 1 that said he flat out forced himself on them. With non disclosure agreements we probably will never know the truth.

@MommaDaggs

As I said sexual assault accusations are easy to make and hard to prove. More pertinent to the topic though is the fact that "unwanted sexual advances" is arbitrary when the only people who really know what happened are the accuser and the defendant. The idea that women should always be believed is - well - ridiculously unjust not to mention unfair.

In many cases (like with hot young actresses it seems) it is not a matter of having to sell her body - it is a matter of what she is willing to do and with whom she is willing to do it in order to gain entre' into the celebrity sweepstakes.

The problem it seems is that she knows there are hundreds of other women out there vying for the same thing. So she knows if she doesn't "consent" to sexual contact with the toad she isn't going to get the job she is seeking.

So then it comes down to how much she values herself. Is she willing to sell her body and her soul for a chance at fame and fortune (material wealth?) or would she value her own body and soul and her personal integrity to the degree that she would never consider the idea of it...as you said before and I agreed - it is a fkd' up world.

@iThink I’m leaning more your way on Hollywood .... I would like to believe it to be not true, but it very likely. I’ve never thought that all women should arbitrarily be believed. That Blasey Ford woman was full of it, however it’s plausible she actually believed it. Or someone convinced her to believe it. As. Bad. As it sounds, I watched her opening swearing in and decided right then she was psychotic.

On sexual assault, I know it is he said she said, but If genuine trauma if presented then I am more likely to believe; post traumatic stress is visible. There are signs to determine a real victim. What is so frightening to me is how the internet has introduced stress, anxiety, and depression in kids. This can’t be good to their self esteem, I would love to see Hollywood eradicated. The fact that a woman’s value comes down to looks and weight is Deplorable, inauthentic and disingenuous.

I never understood how someone could could sell themselves for something they wanted. But I also have gratitude for all that I have. I worked for it. I’ve never been handed things and I have been in a few situations where I could have traded my body and soul for something I wanted. But other than life and death situations I just haven’t wanted anything that bad. I am blessed and believe it’s how you value yourself and there are women in the world who have value and belief in themselves. Being an introvert fortune and fame seem horrible. I’m a way under the radar type. I prefer zero attention!!

Appreciate your thoughts. I still believe HW is an asshat who deserves whatever karma conjures up! Even if the women were willing,

@MommaDaggs
"I’m a way under the radar type. I prefer zero attention!!" - ME TOO

"Appreciate your thoughts. I still believe HW is an asshat who deserves whatever karma conjures up! Even if the women were willing, " - ME TOO

It's been an interesting thread - thanks!