I can't either. Another glitch. BooRadley's revenge. She's badass.

@chuckpo Revenge on what ? LOL I like her.

@RemiDallaire, oh yeah, me too. It was a compliment.

In the absence of incredibly powerful social norms revolving around sex and marriage and mores to fit the bill, it is too much to ask people to just be "responsible" as sexual freedom is promoted and idealized in an sexual open market. Daughters are no longer awarded by families to secure alliances. They no longer have to prove purity. Sons from good backgrounds are no longer guaranteed to be awarded a wife. This means everyone has to search for love on their own. This creates a system where trial and error is to be expected as people seek out what they believe would be best for them, absent of any and all social expectations.

Because there is trial and error even in regards to sexual act in order to determine whether or not you will be "satisfied" with this person, unplanned pregnancies will occur, no matter how many barriers or precautions are taken. There is no full-proof method besides abstinence. Thus, given that the fetus in the early stages of pregnancy is 100% dependent on the mother and on consuming her space and resources, abortion makes sense to be allowed to an extent. However, beyond the realm where the fetus is 100% dependent and can survive on its own, the fetus should be given the opportunity to survive on their own and without that chance otherwise comes far too close to the "murder" definition. Murder is an act of of the elimination of a separate independent human being and the complete voiding of their freedom.

@JeffHamilton13 Ok cool, But full of grey area.

Let's split this in....Reasons to have an abortion

1- Rape.... less than one 1% of abortions

2- Teenage pregnancy... Where the mother is obviously not ready to be a mother.

Well here is the thing about this.

About Teen Pregnancy. In 2017, a total of 194,377 babies were born to women aged 15–19 years, for a birth rate of 18.8 per 1,000 women in this age group. This is another record low for U.S. teens and a drop of 7% from 2016. Birth rates fell 10% for women aged 15–17 years and 6% for women aged 18–19 years.

Maybe Alissa Milano Started another sex strike before that I did not know about but....That teen pregnancy is going down.

3- Fetus that has dissability. Probably 2 % I would guess. I don't know that stat.

4- Pregnancy that would be a health issue for the mother and cause death... (Pretty sure it's rare)

5- Women that did not bag that provider man they wanted to put in chain for life for what ever reason LOL.
I don't know that purcentage... But.... 44 % of women who had an abortion had at least 2.... and 25 % had three ot more.

At this point it sounds like a contraceptive solution.. Wouldn't you say so ?

Is there any other reasons to have an abortion ? Like... I don't know.... you love sex but hate kids...Or so and so.. You love sex but hate contraceptive.... Condoms are so damn unromantic......

Can't think of another reason... I.m sure there is though

@JeffHamilton13 we all know that it's never enough for some people, the goal posts are always being moved. Where does this end? Predictably people have turned this into a profitable business opportunity. At the end of the day everyone has their own decisions and the consequences that come along with it. As a cynic and a skeptic the population control aspect of abortion is a silver lining

@GregHD Definitely some good points here. Whenever a government program or sanction comes into being, it takes on its own life as a self-perpetuating program the for the sake maintaining funding. It's definitely why government powers need to be curtailed in a very careful and exact manner. But at the end of the day....we don't even need population control in the richer countries. Heck, they are struggling, including the U.S., to maintain replacement rates.

@RemiDallaire Well there are plenty of potential reasons. At the end of the day the large increase in women's sexual freedom surely must result in an environment more tolerable of certain unpleasantries related to abortion. But at the same time, I believe it should surely be regulated based on the potential child's dependence factor.

@JeffHamilton13 Potential reasons ? Name some... C'mon. LOL At the end of the day another one start...Women contraception and all kinda of plug for this and patch for that gave them sexual freedom...Since the 60's.Not anything else...... Why should we tolerate the ones that use abortion as a contraceptive ?...

I'm sorry but... If the age of conscent and of voting is 18...All the life responsibilities comes with the passing to the adult life... All this shit is linked together... Linked to culture education and moral values..

Natural selection was taking care of everything before.

@RemiDallaire Don't forget humans are part of nature. Our own environments do the selecting very much as so... more so than anything else.

And yes, it really comes down to the the sexual revolution largely as a result of contraceptive method advancement. People value their sexual freedom more so than stability it would seem. Possibly because they feel like they have more impact that way. Of course this is going to have consequences for how abortion is viewed.

It is still the absolute case that until roughly the 6 month mark, the growing fetus is 100% dependent on the woman's body for survival. Like if you chopped off your head...it wouldn't survive independent from the body. Thus, for the sake of consistent property rights and self-ownership rights, I would argue that the fetus is 100% owned by the woman until it could be said to reasonably survive on its own with the expected care taking of a standard infant. You can destroy your property. That's part of standard property rights. You can grow plants on your field, and you can destroy them. You can grow a fetus in your body, and destroy it. However, one caveat to this is that if in the attempt to abort it is clear the fetus is surviving outside the woman's body, it should be given the chance to live. Planned Parenthood doesn't appear to agree with this provision. However for me, if a fetus can be said to be its own independent entity for the most part requiring food/sleep/drink like any other entity independent of the woman's body, then it is a sovereign human that must be protected under the statutes of individual rights.

For this reason I kinda think Roe v Wade was ahead of its time. It realized there was a compromise that needed to be made to respect both the integrity of the woman and the integrity of new life. This compromise was invented as "viability".

@JeffHamilton13 Interesting point... Can I add to this ? In ancient time...at the beginning of OUR ciuvilisation...Mainly the Greeks...Women had a very important place and were revered for it. Because women were giving the possibility for all men to get closer to immortality.By leaving something behind. That's why Hera... the godess of marriage... and birth. was the wife of Zeus. Even the ancients knew the link in this by instinct (what we call today DNA) . If women's bodies have to be protected under human rights than it must be truth for a men's DNA as well... Equaly...So.... NO the fetus is NOT owned 100 % by the woman, DNA property should be taken as your standard property right as well.

In your example of growing plants.... You seem to imply that women are the farmers.... Yet it's men who plant the seeds... Very bad example in this argument.... Because I could argue that traditoinaly... Men are the farmers and women are nothing but the earth... Maybe you should look into the Demeter Myth... The ancient had that metaphore figured out too.

Now suppose that science in time figure out that for whatever reason a fetus can be consider a human been..at a certain point before your 6 months... What do we do with all the murders that have been performed in time ?.Does Roe V Wade have an answer for that ?? Or should we look more at somes cases like.....let's say Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy because it would be serial killings for the perpetrators. And for the womens who had more than one abortion it would be serial killling cases. too, Remember that science make new discovery every day.,.. And change every day... And this is why I am neither pro life nor pro choice....

@RemiDallaire I understand your overall point that men have an equal scientific role in the creation. But beyond their 5 minute investment, their investment is incredibly limited. Because it is so limited there is no incentive to control the investment from the man's angle. A man is programmed to spread their seed as far and wide as is possible especially when young. This obviously doesn't lend itself to stable family relationships or stable environments for women and their children. So ultimately the best way to conceptualize the issue is to weight the 5 minute investment vs the 9 month one. If these time shares were represented as stock on a company, it would be .0001% vs 99.999%. Because of this it is obvious the woman's stack is far more important.

I'm not pro choice or pro life entirely either. But I recognize that you need to give credibility to both arguments where appropriate. While "viability" may be somewhat arbitrary, it can be medically determined to an extent, statistically as well. It goes hand in hand with sovereignty and independence...very key concepts in our Constitution.

@JeffHamilton13 5 min ???? chuckle I'm sorry I won't make the obvious joke here. My aim is not to insult you in anyway but to truly have a discussion with you even if we don't necessarly agree on many points... But in a normal couple/marriage situation you highly under mind the involvement of the father. Which is EXACTLY what women tend to do .... And which is exactly why men in general are going incel and MGTOW... If men were so preprogammed as you say they are to spread their seeds to the 4 winds.....I highly doubt that such movements would gain any ground as they are right now and will continue to grow.. You are portraying men as mindless cum machine... (men guilt seem to be on you). Soooooooooo I want to ask you... When you were a young men... did you try to spread your seed as much as possible without any self control ? Is that why you take for granted that all men are such ?

If for you reproduction is nothing but a 5 minutes investement I would highly disadvise any woman to even consider to have a child with you by the way.. LOL And for obvious reasons... In a normal situation where the father is involved..... He will put time money ressource and all kind of support towards his partner in crime.

In the animal kingdom,,, men/women are part of the mamal familly... Women carry the child inside of them... It's been so since the dawn of time.... Until we, human start make eggs it will be so.... and absolutely normal.. and the stock market have nothing to do with it.

Cheers

@RemiDallaire Yeah that may be the "typical" or "classic" situation, but it most certainty is not the typical situation where there is more sexual freedom. Typical child is out-of-wedlock, which involves automatic risks. See what I'm saying? All these cultural changes have made allowing abortion somewhat of a necessity to at least a minimum extent. My point is that it could just be a 5 minute investment. There is no guarantee that it is more. It could 45 minutes. It could 20 years. But the lack of a guaranteerer in this situation, like there used to be, has changed attitudes about having the child to begin with.

@JeffHamilton13 SOOOOOOOOOOOOO ?? What can YOU Jeff do about it ?....Clean up your room Jordan Peterson says.... I dunno what's your situation nor I am interested in it.... But... Do what's right for you your familly if you have one.... And be a man.... Like I have been... being the father of an autistic child that the mother abandonned. having been there from the beginning to the end present and the best that I could be... I work nights shift so if something goes wrong with my child I'm there.

I'm not going to be anecdotal and give you an anecdotal argument... But I will tell you.. if you find someone you can trust.... go be a man and a good father, Or be MGTOW...better yourself....to the best you can. that's it that's all. And stop thinking that because you have a dick that makes you the scourje of this world. On the contrary... the road you walk... has been build by a men just like you. the chair you sit on the food you eat the house you live in all have been builded by.... a bunch of guys. just remember that...

@RemiDallaire Good thing I have no lack of confidence there. I'm just articulating some of the finer points of the abortion argument.

@JeffHamilton13 And I keep destroying them LOL It's a good thing you ar enot settle on the issue just like me