Sorry... But there are no such thing as moderate Muslims. There never was. There never will be. They are Muslims because it gives them an advantage over anybody else as written in their book... Try to have a Muslim explain the sword verse to you....You will NEVER have a straight answer because once again the Koran tells him it is OK to lie to you... Basically because you are an infidel. The lowest of the low...

People who say....But I have Muslims friends.... that... blah blah.... NO ! They are not your friends they are aquaintance and they are closer to you because there is somehow an advantage to be closer to you and be nice to you.... If there wasn't a reason.... You would be nothing but an infidel to them....Muslims will NEVER follow a peace treaty....Because Mohamat did not follow a peace treaty. Hudaybiyyah peace treaty - a 10-year truce agreed between Islam's Prophet Muhammad and the Quraish Tribe of Mecca. However, two years later, Muhammad attacked and conquered Mecca. Because of this... You can't ever be sure what a Muslim will tell you..The reason is...The Muslims believe that they are supposed to act like their prophet...

The Middle east does not/ did not/ will NEVER have the self critisism the occident did have on itself. Those who call for the reform of ISLAM are Liars that just want to throw sand in your eyes and gain time for the next attack. And this is going on for 1400 years, And it will not stop until we decide to defend ourself properly. The Crusades were not an attack on ISLAM it was a late self defence from the occident after the arabian conquests.

Slavery still exist in the Middle east. And it is not about to stop anytime soon..For EVERY Immigrant Muslims you see here.... Ask yourself....Why are they here ? Why are they here is they continue to follow a faith that was oppressing them in their own country ?? The answer is... It does not oppress them.... They are here to spead the oppression. That is why you have NO GO zone in France in England in Sweden and in the USA now. And that is why Your daughters or grand daughters will be forced to wear a burka in 50 years or so..... Because YOU think there is such thing as a moderate Muslim...

Surah....9,2 Kill them where ever you find them unless they convert... There is only one context into that commandment from the prophet, And that's the power EVERY Muslims know in their faith they have over each and every one of you...And on this.... history is my witness...

I rest my case

@RemiDallaire To be fair, that wasn't much of a case. I mean the bible has rules in it for how to sell your daughter off as a sex slave and most of the same laws for murdering gays. Heck, if a woman is raped she's to be put to death. By your reasoning, there's no such thing as moderate Christians, either. ...Except that's most of them at this point. Because yeah, there were those who called for reformation, and a lot of them died because of it, but eventually it did happen and that's now the norm.

The bulk of the muslim world is not moderates, and most of the middle east is ruled under sharia law. The bulk of the people who move from those countries into the first world countries are doing exactly as you say because they do come from places where they still basically live in the 800s in terms of their laws.

Those who moved to these areas decades ago though have mostly adopted fairly sane views on their religion and aren't crazy. Yeah, there still are some definitely who are still more literalist in their interpretations, and therefore wind up being more on the batshit insane side of things, but there is nuance to be had. The incapacity to see that nuance basically places you on the same level as the other extremists, incapable of judging individuals by individual merit, only seeing the most extreme examples of things and applying it to the whole regardless of validity.

The issue isn't that there are not moderate muslims, but that we stopped enforcing that people adapt to the new cultures they find themselves in, and started taking on far, far more people from areas with different cultures. As you said, most of the people who are moving into europe are strong believers in sharia law and they do want all the women to wear burkas. If they are allowed to continue to move in with large numbers and not to adapt to the current culture, then they will overwhelm it with their own. That doesn't mean that there aren't moderates, it just means the moderates are being drowned out by those who aren't.

Seriously, you haven't given any argument whatsoever against moderate muslims existing. Yes, they are growing more rare proportionately because we're shipping in huge numbers of those who aren't, as well as allowing for more extremist variations to proliferate, but that's hardly evidence that they don't exist at all. Even quoting their scriptures means nothing because the whole point of a moderate is that they don't follow them to the letter as absolute truth without the slightest hint of deviation.

Every religion has those who adhere to it without the slightest hint of common sense, and those who just take the parts that seem reasonable to them as individuals who toss out the bits that are insane. That's just religion and humans in general. There's nothing particularly unique or special about muslims that magically overturns all of human nature for the vast majority of people to just ignore the parts of scripture they don't particularly like or which goes against their own personal values or laws they consider worth keeping. Humans don't just blindly adhere to crazy stuff unless that's all they're exposed to, which is the big problem of refusing to let people criticize islam, because then they get stuck in an echo chamber of crazy people and it seems normal. If you ensure migrants speak the language of the country they move to and interact with other people, and can have their ideas be challenged, then they will drift towards the culture they're in over time. To suggest that muslims are magically incapable of such because their book(s) tells them not to is patently absurd.

Like not kidding, this is like the level of argument of a toddler. Like under four years old, before they're capable of understanding concepts like object permanency fully or that each individual has their own separate memories and senses. You may as well be making the argument that if you take a cookie out of the cookie jar, that I will magically know of it because there's no capacity for deviation between our experiences.

Or to put it another way, you're not even wrong because it's a non-answer which doesn't address the issue at all. I mean, it'd go great if you were a network tv news anchor or a politician, but it's not going to win any arguments.

@CatreeceMacLeod We are not talking about the bible...And anyway there are many part in the bible that are totally bullshit. the ancient testament is propaganda for the jews. The group called the Christians did not have a bible for 300 years. It's the emperor Constantine who made an official bible and that's when shit started to hit the fan...So it took humanity 300 years to fuck up the original message that was....Love each other and organoze it for the control of the mass... Never Jesus said kill your daughter if she get raped... That's the Jewish part of the book dear... And they were doing that to protect their blood lines... In another millenia...

Now Compare that to the religion of peace... Mohamet start to write the Koran the 22 December 609 CE.
in 622 to 750 are the Arabian conquest..... 13 years.... of peace.... Well No.... Not exactly....13 year to prepare for war... because that what it took in mediaval time to go to war....

I haven't give you any agument against moderate Muslims because there are no moderate Muslims. Just a sleeping Jihad in waiting dear...If you expect those 1,8 billions of follower to have a modern view anytime soon... You will be the first to convert or to die.. They DO NOT and I repeat...They DO NOT have the self criticism the occident has on themself..If you are waiting for that...You will be deeply dissapointed.. IF that is not enough of a case.... Please by all means go convert and wear a black polyester drape over your head at 42 degree celcius....

To say that this argument is one of a toddler is...Sorry to say ... retarded... I give you historical facts (I should know as an archeologue) and dates....You give me....Your feelings on how things SHOULD be AS an argument.....And NO... It is not a non- answer.... That's the excuse of someone who doesn't want to be wrong... and want a status-quo.

I am not a politician nor I am a news Anchor.... I'm am an archeologue....Who will always go by facts....Not feelings.

@RemiDallaire Inappropriately using dates and quotes doesn't make it a coherent, logical argument. It's still absolute nonsense. The fact of the matter is that human nature is to be lazy. As. Fuck. Like you're being intellectually lazy right now for instance, which is the point - most people won't bother putting a ton of time and thought into the stuff that's in their holy scriptures. What they tend to do is just pick whichever parts are easy for them to follow and which don't require having to deal with complicated problems. They like nice, easy solutions. "This is good" and "this is bad" kind of stuff for the most part. If they have to deal with a conflict where two different values disagree with one another, they tend to just go with the one they're more attached to already or which they personally prefer.

As such, when you hand someone a holy book and it says "gays are evil" but they have some gay friends who are cool, they generally end up siding with their friends rather than the religious text. There will be some who go to more extreme lengths, but that's really based upon their upbringing - someone who treats the quran as absolute literal truth and fact tends to do so because they were brought up in an area where it's enforced as such with blasphemy laws or a family who treats it as such. We get the exact same thing with christians, with jews, with every other religion that's not abrahamic as well. They go with the path of least resistance most of the time - if their family and culture tells you it's absolute truth and not to question it, then that's generally what they go with. If you put them in a moderate society which has laws which strictly go against the teachings, then those beliefs come into conflict and for most people, whichever happens to be easier on them is what they go with. If you remove the hardcore "you must believe it or WE KILL YOU" culture, then human lethargy naturally trends towards not caring about maintaining the absolute values for very long because they're a lot of work and most people don't really believe their faith all that strongly anyway. Most just go along with it because that's what's expected of them. Remove them from that situation and most people slack off almost immediately as soon as they have the opportunity to do so.

The thing is, if your religion is hardcore insanity, and you live in a culture which is moderate and prosperous, then the path of least resistance is to trend towards not being insane. Most people don't want to go to jail and aren't going to bother maintaining that rigorous hatred if they aren't being constantly encouraged to do so.

What you're suggesting is that being a muslim goes against the very fabric of human nature and all of our standard flaws that are exceptionally well-documented. We are lazy fucks. Remove the pressure to live up to a moral standard that involves having to kill gays or hate them, and people stop doing it. The only ways they maintain that is if they have a personal, individual stick up their ass in that regard, such as self-hatred and they're projecting, or otherwise if someone is constantly holding them to that standard with a proverbial gun to their back at all times, such as a family or religious leader who will force the matter on a regular basis.

Hating people takes a lot of effort, and if it goes against the cultural norms of where you live, or is downright illegal, people just generally can't be bothered to maintain that strict level of adherence to such.

As such, the point is it doesn't matter what's written in the book, or who wrote it, nor when. It's irrelevant to the conversation. The average human doesn't fucking care. They're too lazy to read through it, too lazy to maintain the level of righteous indignation needed to treat it as absolute truth. The only possible ways that there could be literally no muslim moderates is if you either change the definition to mean whatever you want it to mean, in which case you haven't solved the issue at all, ooor... or if you're saying anyone who is a muslim magically becomes superhuman, vastly better, more moral, more dedicated, and just flat out "better" than a mere human, who is no longer susceptible to the things that make us human in the first place.

Seriously, you're treating them like they're living gods among men. I hate to break it to you, but they're only human. And the average human just doesn't have the conviction nor patience, much less the mental capacity to tackle these moral dilemmas on a regular basis. As soon as you make the path of least resistance that of being moderate rather than an extremist, then that's the path most people take. Yeah, some others will go the other way, there are exceptions to every rule, but the fact of the matter is that you can't have the concept of "there are no moderate muslims" unless you ascribe to them capabilities far in excess of any other human. And at that point, if it were the case, then sure, I guess they may as well conquer the world if they're literally the ubermensch. I just don't believe that's the case. I believe they're normal, flawed humans, and the path of least resistance for many of them is to maintain the extremist views. To that end, all we need to do is to make it possible to criticize their stuff, expose them to things that challenge their beliefs, and put them in a moderate society that doesn't blindly ignore the crazy shit. There are plenty of people who already became moderate muslims, and yeah, it's technically not following the muslim faith truthfully at that point, but so what? That's just a "no true scotsman" argument at that point, so we're back to changing the definition to match what you want to be true, ignoring reality.

@CatreeceMacLeod

Inappropriately using dates and quotes = Feelings... Not an argument.
Date are based in mathematic therefore are highly based in logic.
Quotes are written in books... Book have been written with purpose.
And the Koran have been written with the intend of overpowering everyone
The Bible have been written for the control of the mass... (by the Roman)

You are accusing me of lazyness when in fact my intend is survival.
Your use of the word fuck again show that your argment is about to be based into feelings therefore
and again is not an argument based in logic..

Please go in Egypt or in Saudie and tell any of them that you believe that they are not following their
faith than burn a burka in front of them... I dare you I double dare you...And hope they will be understanding and MORAL..

---As such, the point is it doesn't matter what's written in the book, or who wrote it, nor when. It's irrelevant to the conversation---

Are you truly that disconnected with reality ? Go tell them that Mohamet doesn't matter... Go tell them that what is written in their book is irrevelant .... Please do....chuckle Than run....

So you make the same point than the NAZi who were just following order (that did not make them innocent but surely more guilty)??? Because they were lazy...

Religion doesnt work that way and you know it...Muslims are one thing and one thing first...They are Muslims and believe they are superior to you me and everyone else because they are Muslims...(Basicaly that's the definition of racism)

---Seriously, you're treating them like they're living gods among men---

You are taking for granted that I have a religious believe... I did not give you any indication of this.

I am just giving plain historical facts.. And dates that completely show motivation...Motivation that did not change in 1400 years..

You make assumption that I am an extremist... I am in fact liberal....and alergic to bullshit.

I won't change historical facts just because it hurt your feelings....That would be retarded.

Please stop spreading your fairy dust and unicorns and rainbow logic my way ,,, I Iistened to your (moralist sparkled of feelings) logic...And in no way you did convince me of the validity of your feelings (not views based on a logical reflexion)

I told you you are welcome to post as much as you want here....And that I would read and listen...IT is still truth and will stay so because I believe in freedom or speach... But I did not say that I would agree with you on anything...

Make more video with yoga music spreading your feelings.. It make me smile and laugh. And its cute.

But don't assume that you have the truth because you have a funny presentation.

We clearly disagree on this subject... You a free to just follow your feelings.. Fine.

Let me follow the historical logic based in reality..