How about empty stomach.

@Krunoslav as I understand it the new farm law allows the farmers to sell their produce wherever they are able to, but the farmers believe that this is a precursor for government not buying their produce anymore.

@eschatologyguy Well, lets put it like this. Do you trust the government? Especially when your prime minister tweets this? We have seen how governments are screwing over people all across the world now, for almost a year. And unless people draw the line, the line will be drawn for them.

Also these are not exactly rich people with lot of savings, or other skills, they depend on the previous agreements and only thing they have is strike or else they are ignored, discriminated against as individuals or in small groups etc. Just like many of us in the west. Except if they don't work , its close to starvation. India has many people and many are very poor still.

@eschatologyguy I found more info here: [aljazeera.com]

It seems to me that World Communist Forum has been trying to take control over food supply and force people into submission or starvation that way. The prime minister of India clearly is on the Great Communist Reset plan so read between the lines.

@Krunoslav IMO, I don't see it as curtailment of freedom if in the previous system farmers had to sell their produce to government, and now they are allowed to sell elsewhere when they are able to. The farmers' ability to sell is being deregulated, not restricted. It is the perception that the government will no longer buy their produce that they are protesting against. With all the PC madness among heads of state, Modi's tweet could very well be just P.R.

@eschatologyguy

Well to my eye and apparently also to 250 mill of people its a clear scam, and they may not even know much about the law or great reset story but they do know a scam when they see one. There was no written contract, only verbal "promise" from a politician. Let me repeat that, a politician.

"The bills are not going to hit all the farmers equally. It’s going to help some and hurt others.

Farmers have now the freedom to sell the crops to anyone. Traders can ignore what the state government legislations are and can buy directly from the farmers and build their own connections with farmers and procure, which is actually a good thing in principle.

The problem with the bills is that they are putting the farmers into the hands of the private players without any safeguards and without any regulations or discipline in terms of price setting. There is a lack of regulatory oversight and price-setting body.

The farmers in the states of Punjab and Haryana are worried that these bills are only the beginning of something larger.

What they fear is that the government will eventually dismantle the state procurement system and the MSP transaction which they depend on."

As I've said; World Communist Forum has been trying to take control over food supply and force people into submission or starvation that way. The prime minister of India clearly is on the Great Communist Reset plan so read between the lines.

Its not good for people its good for big tech and the politicians. Farmers will be screwed over. they have no leverage but to strike on mass. That is the only safe guard they have. Many have already committed suicide seeing no hope for future since covid restriction started. And the social experiment is all about how far they can push us and so far we have allowed it to go further and further and further. How much longer?

@Krunoslav
Isn't Communism all about centralised planning and total state control?

@eschatologyguy Yes it is. You are just looking at the wrong place. This is globalist communist planing, by the people who are not accountable to voters or people in specific countries. As long as Indian Government is wedded to its farmers, by democracy and legal contrast, farmers have some leverage and protection. And that is what they are fighting for. They are not asking government to be socialist government, they are simply using the only means they have to prevent being totally screwed over. In an open market, they will have no representation or protection and they will be exploited, a guarantee.

@Krunoslav
So they should be brought to court and made to pay reparations to the farmers they cheated. India actually used to practice metered Socialism during India's participation in the so-called "non-aligned movement" in the 70's and 80's. They have since gradually abandoned this in favor of the open market system.

@eschatologyguy India has been under someone's rule most of if's history, and since Birish Left in 1947, they have struggeling to find a way to accommodate their religious, social, economic and political challenges. With huge population of mostly low skill poor people that is growing in numbers its a massive challenge. They might had democracy and free market but with heavy duty corruption so both democracy and free market, aren't free to all. And now once again they want to be ruled by yet another global set of corporations just like East India Trade Company during British Raj. If its one thing these people recognize its tyranny when they see it.

@Krunoslav
The regulation to sell only to government is apparently a "remnant law" of their Socialist system that they followed before. So I'm confused. To be deregulated so they could now sell their produce to anybody they want to sell it to is already tyranny? That doesn't make sense. That's why I said I strongly suspect that the CCP's "asymmetric" hand in all of this current social unrest in India today. I hope you can see the possibility of that angle too. The Chinese are doing it most everywhere, even in my country they are actively funding (according to PH intelligence) our Maoist movement here. Many of their operators are in our Congress and universities.

@eschatologyguy Sure, CCP cuould be subverting the politicians, but its not subverting the 250 + mil of farmers and housewife. For them is simple. They see it as only leverage so they can feed themselves and their family. To them its very simple cost / benefit scenario and they are not educated in politics, for them its simply a matter of trust. Clearly they don't trust the politicians. And they should not. Weather its CCP or not involved for the farmers it matters far less than prospect of having something to eat or not. So they go with gut instinct and basic concept of trust. When that is gone, all else is formality.

@Krunoslav the CCP is subverting an entire US political party, a chunk of the opposing party and almost half the US population. And what do you subvert when you subvert? Isn't it a people's perception of reality? What the Indian farmers are protesting about is their perception that their government is going to stop buying their produce (which I suppose is at a subsidised price). Now tell me - based on this act alone - where is the tyrrany there?

@eschatologyguy CCP is subverting an entire US political party? I don't see evidence of that. I see evidence of corruption US political establishment doing business with CCP and others, but I do not see evidence CCP is doing anything that would suggest they are in control and its one sided.

"What the Indian farmers are protesting about is their perception that their government is going to stop buying their produce (which I suppose is at a subsidised price). Now tell me - based on this act alone - where is the tyrrany there?"

The same basic thing happened in my country (Croatia) as well, and it was a disaster for farming. So much so that we now don't even buy our own products even if we live in fertile land, but we import for far away markets, because its still cheaper. The problem off course is that this was done because the big companies wanted the market, and to kill the competition they bribed the politicians who open the market to the global trade. That by itself would not be a problem if the politicians actually provided conditions for the people who get educated to attract investments, to essentially operate more easily as big business themselves. Instead the politicians used bureaucracy to tie down in endless red tape the local farmers and enterpernours and virtually over night made farmers obsolete and uncompetitive. And the big corporations got the market that way. That is how it works. Tyranny part is that this is in effect selling out of its own people by taking the bribe or some legal framework that sides with big global corporations at the expense of the local people. Its a very old scheme. Every farmer understands it.

The farmers in India called the bills corporate-friendly and anti-farmer. Why do you think that is ? Because they are stupid or because they can smell a rat when they see one?

Where is the tyranny? It depends on how you define it I guess.

Tyranny is that there is no legal or any other guarantee protection for the farmers, and old contract is being broken without their consent from what I can read. And they know they will be screwed if they allow it to happen. If there are no protection other than how much leverage they have to compete on global market, framers know they will not be able to compete. They simply do not have the technology or skills to do so. And yet this is their livelihood.

This bills are not something farmers want and its not something they are being asked to vote on. Also when they tried to be heard they were ignored, when they tried to be heard by strike they were attacked by water cannons, batons and tear gas. If ruler is acting like that, why do you think that is? Is it because his interests are for the people or because the interests lie eleswhere?

India is well known for political corruption and inefficient bureaucracy. So I imagine there is plenty of dirty going ons here.

Among the demands are removal of punishment and fine for stubble burning as well as release of farmers arrested for burning paddy stubble in Punjab

As of 3 December 2020, the farmers' demands include:

Repeal the three new farm laws
Convey a special Parliament session to repeal the farm laws
Make minimum support price (MSP) and state procurement of crops a legal right
Assurances that conventional procurement system will remain
Implement Swaminathan Panel Report
Cut diesel prices for agricultural use by 50%
Removal of punishment and fine for stubble burning
Release of farmers arrested for burning paddy stubble in Punjab
Abolishment of the Electricity Ordinance 2020
Centre should not interfere in state subjects, decentralization in practice

Wherever you might think of the arguments of each side, here is a good barometer. Have you ever tried to organize a protest or strike? Its not easy to mobilize people and especially 250 mil of people. Unless these people feel they have been wronged and there is something worth fighting for. Even if I didn't know anything about bills themselves, I know enough of human nature that large scale protests like that are done mainly by the people who feel that is the only way they will be heard.

But lets say that farmers are wrong and that these new bills are better solution? Shouldn't a prime minister who has interest of the people in mind, do more to try to find common ground and so that people don't go on strike? I would think that there must be some kind of compromise farmers would accept.

On the other hand , Mundi is a politician and he talks about Build Back Better, Green Deal, Climate Change.... and wants to give access to large corporations over its own people. Its hard not to see who is screwing who here.

I don't know, something sounds very fishy about government who tries to avoid talking to you and tells you what is best for you. I believe they call that tyranny.

P.S.

After failing to get the support of their respective state governments, the farmers decided to pressure the Central Government by marching to Delhi. On 25 November 2020, protestors from the Delhi Chalo (transl. "let us go to Delhi" ) campaign were met by police at the borders of the city. The police employed the use of tear gas and water cannons, dug up roads, and used layers of barricades and sand barriers to stop the protestors, leading to at least three farmer casualties]

Amidst the farmer agitation, on 27 November, media highlighted the actions of a youth who jumped onto a police water cannon that was targeting protesting farmers and turned it off. He was later charged with murder.

The march on Dehli was accompanied by a 24-hour strike of 250 million people across India on 26 November 2020 in opposition to both the farm law reform and proposed changes to labour law.

The Central Government Of India allotted the date of 3 December 2020 for discussing the future of the new farm laws, despite protesters' demands that the talks should take place immediately. It was decided that the government would only talk to a select group of farmer unions. The Prime Minister would be absent in this meeting. The KSMC, a leading kissan jatha (transl. farmer organisation) refused to join this meeting for these reasons.

While the Center wants the farmers to move away from Delhi to a protest site in Burari, on the outskirts of the city, the farmers preferred to stay at the borders and instead put forward a proposal of protesting at Jantar Mantar in central Delhi.

@Krunoslav I rest my case