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Premise: The best argument for trans competing with their choice gender is that after hormone therapy their bodies are chemically the same as chosen gender.

So then, how about recategorizing competitive classes based on chemical measurements rather than gender? Similar to fighter weight classes?

Consider your answer assuming the premise is valid.

Bloodsyckleraven 5 Nov 2
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Not holding my breath for any male trans to compete in a male sport; then after winning, pull a Greta Thunberg sized PR stunt to sell his “I Am Woman! Watch Me Roar!” as some “Woke-Rocky” cinema waiting to happen.

@Bloodsyckleraven ...I’m referring to those “female-with-prostate,” types, not being willing or able to challenger “males with prostate” types. Authentic women who choose competing against prostate-packing-females should at least, wise up enough to boycott kick boxing?

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Introducing chemical changes to a body does not ultimately change the body. In the same way you can breed a dog to change certain characteristics it does not make the dog a completely different animal. It is in the genetic make up of the body that is still there that proves the fact that man can not re-make nature.

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Sorry, I can't consider the premise is valid when it is not true. There are too many variables that come into play much more than hormones. The difference between the male and female brain is a good place to start.

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You only have to look at the specific cases. Mediocre male athletes become champions as soon as they trans. They have the right chemical make up, yet they are champions.
Statistically that is simply not possible.
The changes from womb to the age 12 already sets boys in a different class. The following 12 years are even more important.
Sure, transgenders become weaker, however they still have a significant advantage over real woman.
All you are doing is destroying woman’s sport.
Replacing beautiful woman with ugly men... who wants to watch and support that?

7

After puberty, even with hormone therapy, the body retains the skeletal and muscular configuration of their genetic sex. Male and female have differently shaped pelvis and the angle of the thigh bone to the knees is different, which causes a difference in how the muscles and tendons attach to the bones and cause a difference in the forces of the muscles on the legs. Genetic males usually have larger, denser bones and muscles than most genetic females. The gonads (sex glands) and other glands will continue to excrete hormones, even if countering hormones are given. So, no, the genetic male will have testosterone plus estrogen; the genetic female's body will produce estrogen, thus making them different chemically.

Bingo. This is the main issue with trans athletes. The only way I know for a man to legitimately compete as a woman is if hormone therapy is started before puberty. That's unthinkable imo.

@coalburned It should be unthinkable, but puberty-blocking drugs are being used, off label, without research on long term effects. It is child abuse. It will still not change skeletal differences. It does not change their DNA and chromasomes.

@WestrnLady Definitely child abuse. Attempting to modify a pre-pubescent child simply for one's own gratification it personal preference is heinous.

So if drug therapy can't suppress testosterone, then to answer the original question, it seems to me that the only group that would be chemically the same are transgenders themselves. Having trans leagues, Olympic categories, etc has been proposed, so it seems like we're back to square one?

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I simplify this discussion now to two categories: “with penis” and “without penis”.

Forget discussions about biology. They go nowhere because progressives have successfully deconstructed words like “gender”, “male” and “female”, rendering them meaningless.

Avoid the rabbit hole going forward: divide bathrooms, prisons, shelters, and sports by two new categories: one for those “with penis”, and a second for those “without penis.”

Progressives don’t know how to deal with simplicity.

@Bloodsyckleraven you identified a great way to re-categorize. The problem is, the progressive activists deconstructing the gender binary reject classification outright. They are operating purely on self-evaluation based on feeling.

Sorry, but that does not cover the problem in women's sports. If the penis is removed, the body composition, DNA, chromosomes are all still male. Girls and women are missing out on athletic scholarships and being competitive in sports. It is just not fair to them. Let the transgenders have thier own class. They do not belong in women's sports.

@WestrnLady agreed, but contemporary law doesn’t give a whit about biology, and that’s already reflected in many jurisdictions’ driver’s licenses, passports and government services. They don’t want to be categorized, and the end goal here is to eliminate “male” and “female” distinctions altogether. Unfortunately, we are already half way there.

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Lets assume this is a possibility, there would have to be accurate inexpensive methods of measuring each and every chemical responsible for gender differences and the level of them, and the level of them in relation to other chemicals. So from here lets assume it is possible which it may be if so inform me, a problem arises with the way sex hormones behave in that they are hardly consistent, and more so with females than males (as in there is massive fluctuation moment to moment). This would need to be accounted for in the measurement process, an perhaps measurements would have to occur every day until the moment the competition takes place. Another variable I can imagine is this, men on the lower end of the male distribution for physical ability are still on another level to that of women on the end of the female distribution, but it depends on what characterizes and low and if for a woman is average for a man etc. This isn't the variable I initially intended on writing, that is on bone structure and density, no matter how you cut it a temperamentally disagreeable woman in a fighting competition against a trans woman who's got higher bone density won't last if skills are matched, his strikes will hit with more force, and she won't handle them as long as he/she could. However if the goal is to implement a more accurate method of classing individuals to minimize disparity in biological advantages this might be worth pursuing. Though I don't have any ideas on how this would be done.

@Bloodsyckleraven this has been done and the answers is as expected. If you were a male with male hormones anytime between between 10 and 25 you have a permanent advantage.
It is still debated whether this advantage already was formed between 2 and 10 years... or there is reason to suspect that the advantage was already formed in the womb.

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Why assume that a false premise is valid?

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Might be a good start...

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