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History: Between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast of North Africa. On the coast of the Indian Ocean too, slave-trading posts were set up by Muslim Arabs.

CRBG 7 Apr 20
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0

And my only point was of courage and bravery very few can comprehend these days. Put your self in their shoes for a moment if you will. A fledgling country with almost nothing. A Captain is handed orders on a pier by his boss. Take that wooden ship. Go a quarter way around the planet. Zero safety net. Probably no support. Chances of sinking are high. Rudimentary navigation and charts. Find a group of local bad guys over there and tell them if they don’t cut the shit we’re going to Kick Their Asses!

2

Watch out! You're commitiing a thought-crime!

1

Thanks for bringing this up. It’s a very significant story that very few know anything about.

2

We owe the Muslims nothing. They are nothing but trouble in this country. Just look at Minneapolis. What are we doing to ourselves? Americans need to regrow a set of balls.

2

It appears that real history or anything to do with the white race will only happen after they stop with the self loathing.

4

You will hear about the crusades and how brutal they were, but you will never hear that the crusaders were trying to rescue the millions of Christian's that had been captured and enslaved by the muslims over centuries.
Soon it will be time for another crusade.... ?

only this time we don't have to go looking for them.

There’s a Football team in NZ called the Crusaders. And of course after that Event the Muslims are demanding that Football Team change it’s name?!

3

Slavery and sex slavery was/is condoned by Mohammed.

Quran (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."
Quran (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners.
Quran (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means😉 praise be to Allah.'

2

Wrong. Only America enslaved people and it is our ‘original sin’. Just ask a leftist.

Not true. It's also inaccurate to equate American slavery with Barbary slavery. American slavery was inherited and race-based. Barbary slavery was not either, and converting to Islam granted freedom to a slave.

@WilyRickWiles slavery is slavery. True, there's no equating any culture's slavery with another's but it is valuable to compare.

Here's a sign for future posts. Some comments suggest it may be needed

@cRaZyTMG Interesting, I haven't seen someone use sarcasm to express what they literally believe before.

@WilyRickWiles so many societies in the history of mankind have had slavery and many continue to. Sadly, some choose to look upon the slavery that we had in America and single it out as uniquely horrible. Yes, it was horrible and I thank God we did away with it but all slavery is horrible. Now let’s see what we can do to end slavery around the world because it still exists in many places, including sex slavery which happens in many of our neighborhoods.

@WilyRickWiles So religious-based slavery is better than race-based slavery? So if I converted to Islam in order to escape the fate of being enslaved, then that was better?

What about the African slaves that were captured, shackled, castrated (men), and sold to be raped in slave auctions (women) in Arab Muslim countries. Did they have the option to convert? No, they didn't. Because if Africans had that option, they would have converted rather than given the most humiliating, degrading, cruel, torturous fate: slavery.

Anyway, back to White Christain Europeans kidnapped and sold to slavery in the Barbary coast....I have a sincere question: If EVER any Europeans kidnapped Arab Muslims and sold them into slavery in Europe, do you think you'd EVER hear the end of it???? 1000 years after the Crusades, and we're still hearing about the evil European Chrisitians who invaded Islamic countries (Islamic only because of Muslim conquest, btw). Do you think you'd ever be able to live that down, as a descendent of whites who enslaved ARABS??

Arabs enslaved Africans for hundreds of years. That's NEVER taught in the Arab world, nor admitted, nor addressed. All kinds of Arabs actually have no idea that their ancestors enslaved Africans.

Today's whites are so arrogant that they actually think that they are the inheritors of the worst evils in the world, that the entire world's evils are somehow the responsibility of their ancestors, that if only they confess and self-flaggelate, they'll be able to expiate their sins.

Guess what: White people are NOT the worst actors in this world. They were NOT the first to invent slavery, but they were the first to abolish it. They were not the first to colonize, but they were the first to apologize for it. Arab Muslim slavery of Africans and Europeans over hundreds of years was thorough-going. Some Arab Muslim states didn't even abolish slavery until 1970 (Oman) 1981 (Mauritania), etc.

@CRBG I have a sincere question for you: is your morality completely relative to your perception of the morality of other groups of people?

@Clammypollack I have a serious problem with the indentured servitude in Dubai, for example. But the difference between me and right wingers is that I don't assume that Muslims across the globe are fundamentally prone to such labor practices and I don't simultaneously see Dubai as a libertarian paradise.

@WilyRickWiles No my morality is not relative. Now, I have a sincere question for you. Is your assignment of guilt for slavery relative to skin colour? In other words, if facts show that slavery was as extensively practiced by Arab Muslims as it was by whites (both in the number of overall slaves captured and sold and enslaved as well as the severity of the cruelty), do you think it is fair and just to perceive slavery by whites to be worse (relatively speaking) than slavery by Arab Muslims and Africans?

I have NEVER assumed that Muslims across the globe are fundamentally prone to abhorent labour practices, and, yes, I am conservative. By the way, I have lived half my life in Kuwait, where indentured servitude is probably worse there than it is in Dubai, so I'm well aware of the contemporary forms of "slavery" that exist, and it is NOT among whites.

That brings me to another sincere question: Don't you think that the Arab world's refusal to admit its own history of slavery allows for the continuation of race-based indentured servitude? After all, when you fail to acknowledge and apologize for historical ills (as whites have), you end up repeating the same mistakes (albeit in a more modern context).

@CRBG

If EVER any Europeans kidnapped Arab Muslims and sold them into slavery in Europe, do you think you'd EVER hear the end of it????

Today's whites are so arrogant that they actually think that they are the inheritors of the worst evils in the world

Is your assignment of guilt for slavery relative to skin colour?

Don't you think that the Arab world's refusal to admit its own history of slavery allows for the continuation of race-based indentured servitude?

What does any of this have to do with my comment? This is why I asked you "is your morality completely relative to your perception of the morality of other groups of people?"

So religious-based slavery is better than race-based slavery

Religion is not a fundamental attribute of a person. You can change it. So while I think it is a bit of a stretch to call Barbary slavery "religious-based slavery," I'll concede the point and say yes, it's better than race-based slavery. And like I said, Barbary slavery wasn't hereditary. Moreover, the Atlantic slave trade enslaved an order of magnitude more people and millions more were born into it during the same time period. But hey, feel free to provide evidence to disprove my argument and support your counterargument rather than put words in my mouth.

@WilyRickWiles Why are you still asking the same question about relative morality? My point is NOT about whether or not slavery is MORALLY bad. Of course ALL of it is....YOU'RE the one who thinks one form of slavery is better than the other.

AND NO! According to Islam, you cannot CHANGE your religion. If you're born Muslim, you risk your own life if you change it. CHRISTIAN Europeans were enslaved by Muslims whether or not they converted, and they didn't get the choice.

Do you know why Arab Muslims enslaved Africans AND Europeans? BECAUSE ISLAM PROHIBITED (AND STILL DOES) THE ENSLAVEMENT OF FELLOW MUSLIMS. SO THEY HAD TO TURN TO PEOPLE WHO WERE OF NON-MUSLIM FAITHS.

In what universe is it better to be a slave due to race or a slave due to faith (which, according to Muslims, cannot be changed....)?

Also, you're not addressing my point at all. My point is what is each culture's response to its own historical slavery? What is the ethical response to knowing that your ancestors enslaved other people because of their colour or religion or whatever? Which culture acknowledges the past and apologizes for it? In which culture can you even bring up "reparations"?

C'mon now. Deny it or avoid it all you like. The answer is, EUROPE and AMERICA are the only ones acknowledging their history of slavery even though they ENDED it.

ARAB MUSLIMS ENSLAVED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND IT IS NEVER DISCUSSED ANYWHERE IN THE MEDIA, ACADEMIA, SCHOOL CURRICULUM, NOTHING!

Admit that Europe and America are at least ethically responding to historical evils that today's Arab Muslims are failing to do!

@CRBG

According to Islam, you cannot CHANGE your religion

When, where, and whose Islam? Regardless, your source pretty clearly is "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500–1800" by Robert Davis. I've already conceded your points using this source even though there may be room to contest them. The book says: "There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam."

Also, you're not addressing my point at all. My point is what is each culture's response to its own historical slavery?

Your point has nothing to do with my original reply to Clammy's comment, nor was it included in the original post. I find it really bizarre but unsurprising that you keep drawing these off-topic comparisons.

@Clammypollack Libya openly sell Black Africans to the Arabs today! Google it.

@WilyRickWiles

According to Islam you cannot change your religion...not if you're Muslim. All 5 schools of Islamic Jurisprudence (Shafiyee, Hanafi, Hanbali, Malky, and Jaafary) have apostasy laws. Every single Muslim majority country has laws--on the books--that punish ex-Muslims by jail or execution for leaving the religion. Your religion is mentioned on your ID card, and atheism is not an option. How do I know? I lived in the Middle East half my life. Find me ONE Muslim-majority country that does NOT have a law that punishes apostasy. Find me one school of Islamic jurisprudence that does NOT have apostasy laws.

What is each culture's response to historical slavery?

In the West, kids are taught in school about the history of slavery.

In the Middle East, not a single Arab Muslim country even mentions it in any school curriculum.

In the West, you won't find anyone (any citizen) who doesn't know that America and the British Empire engaged in the capturing, selling, and enslavement of Africans.

In the Middle East, most people do not know at all about Arab Muslim enslavement of Africans because it was never taught in school, never mentioned in the media, never mentioned in politics. In fact, the Arabic word for "black" is "slave" (Abd). When I used to go to the beach as a child, I'd come back home really dark. My aunt would concernedly tell me that I'd become an "abd". Racism is in the language.

@CRBG Are you 300 years old?

@WilyRickWiles WHAT????

@CRBG When you need to use modern day generalizations about Muslims to support your argument about Berbers hundreds of years ago, it's a good sign that your argument is weak. Have you even read the book you're paraphrasing?

@WilyRickWiles What generalizations did I use about modern day Muslims? I'm talking about governments/cultures of Arab Muslim peoples. This is either a deliberate attempt to obfuscate or we're simply speaking past each other.

Exactly what are you disputing? That Arab Muslims today don't know (because their governments suppress) history of slavery by Arab Muslims? I was born and raised and have lived in the Middle East half my life; I'm a product of that culture. I know for sure that (in general) Arabs/Muslims do not KNOW about the history of Arab Muslim slavery. When I point it out to them, they're shocked, and they decide I'm simply trying to put them down. They don't believe it until I show them evidence of it. The education curriculum does not mention it at all, neither does the media, nor politicians. It is suppressed, and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

I AM FLUENT IN ARABIC; I AM A PRODUCT OF ARAB MUSLIM CULTURE (ALTHOUGH I AM NOT MUSLIM MYSELF). There is an absence of history about slavery by Arab Muslims throughout the Arab world. I'm not just generalizing out of ignorance or bigotry. I'm telling the TRUTH about how HISTORY is suppressed across the Arab Muslim world. The same is true in Brazil, which historically relied more on slavery than America ever did, and yet it is not taught in schools and not part of the cultural narrative.

Are you disputing the fact that European Christians were kidnapped and enslaved at the Barbary coast? Or are you simply disputing their numbers because you don't like the source?

For once, be clear.

@CRBG OK, let me illustrate how this conversation got off track. I hope this will be clear enough.

You (OP): Cited an estimate by Robert Davis from his book "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500–1800" of the number of white, Christian Europeans who were ensnared by the Barbary slave trade between 1530 and 1780.

Clammy (comment): Sarcastically claims that you are wrong. Says leftists would claim that only America enslaved people.

Me (reply): Leftists do not deny the history of slavery by non-Americans. But Barbary slavery is not equal to American slavery.

You: So religious slavery is better? Proceeds to compare modern day Americans and Europeans to generalizations of modern day Muslims.

Me: That's an odd deflection. Wonders what about my my reply triggered it.

You: Again, compares modern day Americans and Europeans to generalizations of modern day Muslims.

Me: Answers question about whether I think "religious slavery was better": I wouldn't characterize it that way but here are more facts demonstrating how the Atlantic slave trade was worse than the Barbary slave trade.

You: Again, compares modern day Americans and Europeans to generalizations of modern day Muslims to dispute conversion.

Me: Look at your own source! And why do you keep deflecting?

You: Again, compares modern day Americans and Europeans to generalizations of modern day Muslims.

Me: Can we get back to the topic of whether Barbary slavery was equal to American slavery? Why insist that Berbers hundreds of years ago conformed with your modern day generalizations when we have a book--that you cited--that tells us exactly what they did do?

You: Again, compares modern day Americans and Europeans to generalizations of modern day Muslims.

@WilyRickWiles AAHHHHAAA. I see, so you assume that when I mention that Arab Muslims enslaved Christian Europeans, that THAT was the ONLY form of slavery that ARAB MUSLIMS engaged in?

  1. Are you even aware of the number of Africans enslaved by Arab Muslims?

  2. How many Africans were enslaved by Arab Muslims over the course of hundreds of years? Use your own sources.

  3. IF it turns out the numbers of Africans enslaved by Arab Muslims are the same as (if not more than) the overall number of Africans enslaved in America and the British Empire. Will you finally admit that Arab Muslims are as guilty of this historical ill as the West?

  4. You repeatedly accuse me of generalizing about modern-day Muslims even though I'm talking about FACTS RE: how Islamic imperialism and slavery are taught in Arab Muslim countries. Is this what you accuse me of generalizing about?

@CRBG

AAHHHHAAA. I see, so you assume that when I mention that Arab Muslims enslaved Christian Europeans, that THAT was the ONLY form of slavery that ARAB MUSLIMS engaged in?

You're still deflecting. My original point was that the Barbary slave trade was not equal to the Atlantic slave trade because the latter was hereditary and race-based while you could be freed by converting to Islam under the former.

I never contested your #s 1 and 2. I brought up #4 because of your deflections.

Back to the topic at hand, you countered that race-based slavery is not worse than religious-based slavery and that I was wrong about conversion.

I countered by pointing to your own source about conversion.

I added another claim that the Atlantic slave trade claimed an order of magnitude more people (this addresses your #3).

So let's see which of my points stand:

  1. Atlantic slavery was hereditary
  2. Atlantic slavery was race-based
  3. Barbary slaves who converted were freed
  4. 10 times more people were enslaved by the Atlantic slave trade during the same time period
  5. All of the above supports the claim that the Atlantic slave trade was objectively worse than the Barbary slave trade

That's it.

@WilyRickWiles "You're still deflecting. My original point was that the Barbary slave trade was not equal to the Atlantic slave trade because the latter was hereditary and race-based while you could be freed by converting to Islam under the former."

Where did I say that the Barabary slave trade was equal to the Atlantic slave trade????? I NEVER DID!

I said that slavery (on the whole, including slavery of Africans) by Arab Muslims is equivalent, but the only difference is that the West acknowledges and apologizes for it. The Arabs DO NOT.

African slavery in the Arab world was also race-based and hereditary.

Again, you think I'm comparing a tiny sliver of slavery by Arabs (European Christians) to the WHOLE history of the TransAtlantic slavery by Europeans? You really think I'm that stupid? Why? Because you're so used to discussing such issues with morons who are intellectually inferior?

@CRBG

Where did I say that the Barabary slave trade was equal to the Atlantic slave trade????? I NEVER DID! I said that slavery (on the whole, including slavery of Africans) by Arab Muslims is equivalent, but the only difference is that the West acknowledges and apologizes for it. The Arabs DO NOT.

This exchange started when I said that they could not be equated. You strongly contested my claim, beginning with the words, "So religious-based slavery is better than race-based slavery." Forgive me if I mistook that for disagreement. Moreover, you just used the word "equivalent" with a qualification that was based on the modern day Arab Muslims in general and did not address any of my supporting claims.

African slavery in the Arab world was also race-based and hereditary.

What does this have to do with Barbary slavery, which was the ONLY topic of my comment? Get more specific and we can talk.

Again, you think I'm comparing a tiny sliver of slavery by Arabs (European Christians) to the WHOLE history of the TransAtlantic slavery by Europeans?

Nope, you pretty clearly focused on the years between 1530 and 1780 for both groups. As did I.

@WilyRickWiles To prove to you that you were strawmanning me all along, here's something I wrote as a response to you earlier on in this conversation. [I am quoting myself to demonstrate that I was, at that point, talking about the entire Arab Muslim slave trade, not just the enslavement of Christian Europeans (which, btw, a tiny sliver of history that isn't even taught in the West).]

Here's what I wrote directly to you:

"In other words, if facts show that slavery was as extensively practiced by Arab Muslims as it was by whites (both in the number of overall slaves captured and sold and enslaved as well as the severity of the cruelty), do you think it is fair and just to perceive slavery by whites to be worse (relatively speaking) than slavery by Arab Muslims and Africans?"

See? I was not comparing apples (enslavement of European Christians by Arabs) to oranges (entire history of the TransAtlantic slave trade by Western countries). You were.

BTW, I never got an answer to THAT question.

@CRBG I don't care if that was your motivation for making this post or that you wanted to shift the conversation back to it and away from my claim. I'm not interested in having that conversation more than I already have by comparing the number of slaves in two different slave trades during the same roughly three century period (as I've said twice, the difference is 10-fold). If you have numbers from other parts of the Arab Muslim world or other time periods that you think are relevant, feel free to offer them.

@WilyRickWiles The European slave trade was worse??? 10-fold? Unbelievable. Your numbers are false!

The Arab Slave trade PREDATED the European slave trade by millennia!! Around 17 million Africans (total) were captured and enslaved by Arabs and sold across the Middle East, and I'm not including the European Christians that were also enslaved by Arabs.

Focus on the Arab Slave trade of Africans:

I give you the BBC: [web.archive.org]

I give you UNESCO: "the Arab-led slave trade of African people predates the Trans-Atlantic slave trade by a millennium, and represents the largest and, in time, longest involuntary removal of any indigenous people in the history of humanity.”

Cited in: [newstatesman.com]

I give you a Documentary with footage of African slave auctions by Arab slave traders (yes, they continued to take place even into the age of video cameras, 100 years after slavery was abolished in the West):

Something tells me you're going to dismiss all the evidence and insist on your narrative that the European/American transatlantic slave trade was still worse. LOL.

@CRBG For starters, give me a date range. Are we going back thousands of years in time here? I was pretty clear that I was comparing the Barbary slave trade to the Atlantic slave trade between the 1500s and the 1800s.

@CRBG If you're telling me that it took thousands years to enslave as many people as the Atlantic slave trade did in hundreds, I don't think that helps your point!

@WilyRickWiles I'm going back to when slavery started until it was abolished. C'mon now. Don't start moving the goal post on me. Cumulatively, how many slaves (altogether) were enslaved by Europeans/Americans and how many slaves (altogether) were enslaved by Arab Muslims? And I'm not even counting modern-day slavery in Libya (where you can purchase a black African for $400.00 in shackles in a slave auction) nor in Gulf Arab states that exploit foreign servants.

@CRBG Not to mention that going back to ancient times, using different time frames, and lumping together disparate nations and ethnic groups complicates things.

@WilyRickWiles No! You're putting words in my mouth again. I'm not going to ancient history.

I'm looking at the perpetrators/the established slave trades and routes.

How many Africans were enslaved by ARAB MUSLIMS since Arabs started the slave trade?

How many Africans were enslaved by Europeans/Americans since they started the TransAtlantic slave trade?

Be specific then.

@WilyRickWiles Still no answer? Obfuscating again because I wasn't specific enough the first time? I believe I was specific in my reply. I repeat: Since the beginning of each slave trade....which one enslaved more Africans?

And you're still insisting on the horse manure claim that the Transatlantic slave trade was 10 times worse? LOL. Zero evidence for that.

Or am I not being specific enough when I ask you to support your bogus comparison.

@CRBG You've provided some numbers and date ranges, but here's what I'd like to see: a date range for slavery in the Muslim world and a date range for the Atlantic slave trade that you think are apples to apples, along with the numbers of people who were enslaved during those time frames. I hope you're not talking about the Middle Ages.

Most estimates I've seen counting slaves transported (not including born into) in the Atlantic slave trade between the 1500s and 1800s are on the order of 10 million, e.g., 12.8 million in "The Fortunes of Africa" by Meredith Martin. That's on the order of ten times more than the 1.25 million Barbary slaves you mentioned during roughly the same time frame.

Once you've established that we can get into the substance of whether it is fair to conflate multiple ethnic and national groups and whether the conditions and terms of slavery can be equated.

And again, I'm not interested in having the debate about the modern day, especially not until we've established an equivalence.

@WilyRickWiles "Most estimates I've seen counting slaves transported (not including born into) in the Atlantic slave trade between the 1500s and 1800s are on the order of 10 million, e.g., 12.8 million in "The Fortunes of Africa" by Meredith Martin. That's on the order of ten times more than the 1.25 million Barbary slaves you mentioned during roughly the same time frame."

AGAIN? YOU'RE ASSUMING I'M COMPARING THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE TO THE BARBARY SLAVE TRADE? MY POST DIDN'T EVEN MENTION THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE. YOU BROUGHT THAT UP IN SOME FALSE ATTEMPT TO MINIMIZE SLAVE TRADING BY ARABS AND EXAGGERATE SLAVE TRADING BY EUROPEANS.

So, now that we got this false comparison out of the way, let's compare apples to apples:

A) The TransAtlantic Slave trade started in the 1400s and ended in the 1800s. Within 400 years, 10-11 million Africans were enslaved by Europeans.

B) The Arab Muslim enslavement of Africans (the Eastern trade) lasted from the 600s to the 1900s. Over this period of time, between 12 million and 20 million Africans (estimates are less accurate because Arabs didn't keep records the way Europeans did). I'm NOT even counting the European Christians who were enslaved in the Barbary coast.

So, as you can see, both the Eastern slave trade and the TransAtlantic slave trade exploited, raped, enslaved Africans by equivalent numbers.

Now, knowing what I do about you so far, you're probably going to move the goal post and argue that the TransAtlantic slave trade was still "worse" only because the same numbers were enslaved over a shorter period of time.

To that, I say who the eff cares. Tell that to the Africans who were enslaved by Arab Muslims AFTER the Transatlantic slave trade was ABOLISHED, and up until 1970 and 1981 in Oman and Mauritania (respectively) and those who were enslaved by Arab Muslims BEFORE the Transatlantic slave trade began.

@CRBG AGAIN? YOU'RE ASSUMING I'M COMPARING THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE TO THE BARBARY SLAVE TRADE? MY POST DIDN'T EVEN MENTION THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE. YOU BROUGHT THAT UP IN SOME FALSE ATTEMPT TO MINIMIZE SLAVE TRADING BY ARABS AND EXAGGERATE SLAVE TRADING BY EUROPEANS.

No, Clammy brought it up. Again, before you got off on a tangent, I was responding to her equating slavery in America (a product of the Atlantic slave trade) to the Barbary slave trade (which you mentioned in your OP).

@CRBG Glad we are on more of the same page now. And I do think that it matters that the Atlantic slave trade enslaved on the order of the same number of people in approximately a third of the time. I do think that the conditions and terms of slavery mattered. I do think that you need to look at each responsible institution separately. Who would we hold responsible today? Who today has inherited the wealth of the slaveholders and the wounds of slavery? Has anything been done to compound those wounds? How have other geopolitical events, such as colonization, complicated matters?

I understand why you personally might be fixated on the Muslim world in general, but for most people in America, pointing fingers is just a way to deflect their own national responsibility. They are better off focusing on the things they can control here at home first, and that means atoning for the compounded wounds inflicted by the chattel slavery of blacks. We should not lower our moral standards just because past generations or other nations did.

@WilyRickWiles

If you want to compare the TransAtlantic to the Eastern slave trade, I provided the apples-to-apples comparison above.

However, your response to Clammy wasn't too accurate. Converting to Islam wasn't an option for captured slaves, and there was no guarantee of freedom. Your attempt to portray one kind of slavery as more "merciful" than the other is biased. You reckon without the fact that some slaves were also freed in the British Empire and America. You reckon without the cruel castration of African males and the capturing of African females for the sole purpose of rape (and in auctions for sex harems): These took place by Arab Muslim slave traders. Your initial statement was not adequately supported.

Clammy, however, wasn't too off the mark. If she wants to compare only a portion of the TransAtlantic slave trade (Ex: # of slaves in America) vs. only a portion of the Eastern Slave Trade (# of slaves in the Barbary Coast), I think you'll find that there were possibly more white European Christians enslaved in the Barbary Coast than you would find Africans enslaved in America in the same period: 1500s to 1700s.

@WilyRickWiles Oh, and I'm not lowering my moral standards. You come too close to lowering yours for Muslims, though. Is that a bigotry of low expectations? Why is it that so few people around the world expect Arabs today to acknowledge the Arab Muslim slave trade of their past, while more and more are trying to hold the West (solely) responsible for slavery; hence, the talk about reparations?

Could anyone expect (or even hope) that Arab Muslim countries today to pay reparations for the Eastern slave trade?

Of course, I'm opposed to reparations altogether. I'm just surprised that standards are so much lower for those who engaged in slavery to the same extent and for much longer and to a much more recent period than the TransAtlantic slave trade.

@CRBG
However, your response to Clammy wasn't too accurate. Converting to Islam wasn't an option for captured slaves

Like I said many times, it was in the very book you referenced. We're getting into a not-very-well-documented weeds, so I think I will leave it at that.

Clammy, however, wasn't too off the mark. If she wants to compare only a portion of the TransAtlantic slave trade (Ex: # of slaves in America) vs. only a portion of the Eastern Slave Trade (# of slaves in the Barbary Coast), I think you'll find that there were possibly more white European Christians enslaved in the Barbary Coast than you would find Africans enslaved in America in the same period: 1500s to 1700s.

We weren't talking numbers at that point--just heredity and race, which I still think make the difference regardless of numbers. And I think we've exhausted the numbers debate now that we've covered the last 1,300 years of slavery.

@CRBG [en.wikipedia.org]

@WilyRickWiles Even with heredity and race (and I insist on adding treatment), the transatlantic slave trade was not worse than the Eastern slave trade. You're not providing any support for your argument that the Arab Muslims were more merciful.

I'm not engaging in Whatboutery.

Me: White European Christians were enslaved in the Barbary Coast.
Clammy: There's too much focus on the TransAtlantic slave trade when many cultures/civilizations participated in it.
You: What about heredity? What about race? What about the TransAtlantic slavery? That was worse!
Me: All forms of slavery are bad. And if we look at the numbers, the TransAtlantic and the Eastern slave trade were equivalent.
You: No. What about heredity and race in the TransAtlantic slave trade?

LOL: Let's be honest. It is not I who is engaging in 'whataboutery'. It is THEE.

@CRBG Merely adding the words "what about" does not "whataboutery" make.

@WilyRickWiles LOL. Whatever floats your boat, mate.

@WilyRickWiles Going back to the ‘religious vs race based slavery’ points. I think it is worth noting that many African slaves in the States were forced to change their religion as well. The difference being that it didn’t get them out of slavery and they basically had no way to refuse aside from not believe.

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So why is this not taught in History jaja

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There were many kingdoms in Africa whose wealth was based on slave trafficing. Morocco, Orey, Dahomey, the Ashanti, and Timbuktu. I have read reports saying up to 85,000 people are still slaves in Morocco today. 18th century slave holding pens are preserved as tourist attractions in West Africa. The ruins of vast holding pens, like stock yards for humans, are ignored in Morocco.

But of course I'm a white American, so I must be especially guilty...

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More probably!The Moors went all the way into Spain and the Ottomans into the Balkans!

Yes, I was just referring to the Barbary Coast, but if you count the Ottoman empire and the Moors of Spain, then they add up to the same number of African slaves that were ever enslaved in the US.

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Yes, there were also waves of enslavement of Europeans by the Mongols, the Turks and the Persians. These are what negates the cherry picking of history that attempts to extort reparations!

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Thanks for this information

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History in America has been "sanitized" to remove these and any other facts that prove the MUSLIMS are a violent bunch of animals.

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