@Daryl, positivist reduction.

Nothing to interpret because you already KNOW YOUR TRUTH. Meh. We'll have to agree to disagree. YOUR evidence isn't the same as my evidence. YOU CHOSE your evidence, and from my point of view, you introduced bias into your thinking. That's how disagreements happen. Disagreements don't happen when one person gives some absolute objective truth and then someone else denies that absolute objective truth. Is that what you think?

The Democrats are chronic liars--nearly all of them, and there is solid evidence to back that up. I won't list a bunch of partisan sites like you have. Ultimately, we'll both just discredit the sources, and it's reasonable to do so.

All Presidents probably do lie. In fact, some lies are probably necessary, which is an interesting topic. But, you're making the argument that somehow Trump's lies are unique and pernicious in a way no other politician has lied. I think that's preposterous--demonstrably so. As I said, Trump came along and started playing the game Democrats set up. They don't like it AT ALL!

I'm guessing you think the lies your side tells are okay, while lies by the political opposition are not ok?

He was elected to be a chronic liar? That's news to me, especially since most Trump supporters (1) deny he is a chronic liar, and (2) claim to hate lies by Hillary, Obama, etc.

Silly manipulation. Not really worth comment. Agreed? It's not your place to frame my argument, and I patently reject it. I actually am content framing my own words.

I agree with that assessment. That is a major reason why I left the two main parties decades ago and am an independent. I have my own political ideology, which holds that, among other things that lies, deceit, and unwarranted opacity are deeply immoral and unacceptable from any politician in any party and the fewer lies and less deceit a politician uses, the better. No politician will be perfect, but they darn sure can easily be far better than Trump.

Sweet, the conversation just became MUCH easier. Please offer a critical critique of the left's lies. Lies are RAMPANT in politics and in mainstream media. Agreed? Can any politician be better than the litany of Democrat liars and activist media liars influencing public discourse?

We can't even get to a real discussion until we set some baseline of truth in our own discussion. That truth will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 'lies in politics, lies in the mainstream media, various lies distributed by the voting masses, etc. Partisanship will drop away, and the lies will become the focal point.

@Daryl

Not positivist reduction. You said that, not me.

True, I did say that--not you--for good reason.

There are times when there are objective facts that most people would agree are facts and application of non-partisan logic to those facts can lead to a fairly narrow band of conclusions.

Great theory. How's that working for you in practice? Well to the degree you're willing to trick yourself into believing it, I guess. Fatal flaw applying the statement to politics. That's kind of what's going on now. We're all NOT agreeing on basic 'facts'. Look at 2A, the right has facts. The left has facts. Those facts don't align to well with each other. Huh? How does that work? Interesting, isn't it? Since I've had this conversation with you before, I understand you believe simply your facts are the right ones and the other side's facts are the wrong ones. But, the key is you BELIEVE. It's ONLY your opinion, which would actually be okay if you didn't loathe the loss in your authority to own truth. That part is tough to reconcile.

Your arguments across several threads have proven to be highly positivist and reductionist. It's why I ultimately steer the conversation toward your religious zeal even in the absence of a belief in a higher power. It's the dogma that's important to our conversations.

Truth is way more elusive than you suggest, and I'd imagine it's distributed much more widely than you want to believe. That's life on that one. Move the pieces around the board however you'd like, but that one's PROBABLY not going to fly anywhere.

Why not? I'll pit my objective sites against your partisan sites any day.

If you're calling those objective sites, there's simply not enough common ground to base a conversation. That's like me citing Breitbart. I'd put Breitbart up against any of THOSE sites you chose. I do understand those seem objective to you, but I suggest you rethink yourself and go look for just a little disconfirming data. You'll find loads.

I'm a pragmatic rationalist with a science-informed, anti-bias, reo-reason mindset that attempts to lead me to be more rational about politics.

Among the most anti-scientific statements I've ever read on the internet. Congratulations. That's no small feat. I'll grant that you TRY to aim there. My observation and opinion are that you miss that goal by a pretty wide margin. How do you feel about that reflection? Why would I say something like that? How hard will you try to dismiss the assertions before you've even truly considered them?

That's why I won't intentionally lie or mislead.

In my view, you are clearly misleading to make statements that sound like you know when you are, in fact, stating your opinion--and not an objective one at that.

You don't have a rational response to that so you deflect by calling it manipulation. That tactic doesn't fool me for one second.

Or, you don't have a rational response so that you, blah, blah, blah throw out some dorky thing that starts with 'you don't have a rational response, so'. A nickel for every time I've seen that one on the internet...always makes me wonder if someone even knows where the pieces on the board are.

Yes, Trump is more liar than the liars on the left.

Just silly. Any person attempting to be objective would HAVE to acknowledge there are tons of lies flying all over the place, and that have been for a couple of years at least. And, I won't go into Obama's years. But, this is a conversation really about objectivity, and that statement is just devoid of probably truth. And, not by a little bit.

This is why you and I always run into problems. I see another biased person on the internet who is sorely unwilling to look in the mirror even in the hope of discovering something true. Notice I'm not arguing Trump hasn't lied? Notice I'm saying there are tons of lies going in all directions? Notice you're saying, 'no--Trump's the liar?' And, I'm NOT saying, 'no, the Democrats are THE liars?' What is objectivity to you?

You don't have the numbers. Don't feed me your biased sources. We see those every day. They're themselves lies and misdirection.

SERIOUSLY, what about Russian Collusion? What about Brett Kavanaugh? Holy cow. At least be serious. What about the the kid and the Indian narrative? I meant the LIES. Policy lies, those are lies, but they're much less emotion-laden at this point than the gross lies and manipulations but out by Democrats every day. I just can't take what you're saying seriously. You completely soft-balled your side.

@Daryl sorry Daryl you have been lied to hate the wrong man when the truth comes you are going to feel so Guilty that you did not believe all the crimes committed against children I tied to get you to research and prepare yourself but you won't.

@Daryl it's up to you to part ways blocking any information is never good but that's your choice to make.