Is it possible to seperate the stigma of being racist when making criticisms of islam?
Fear of islamic teachings is a valid definition for the word. Yet too often islamophobia-phobia is stopping what i feel is an ever increasingly necessary conversation
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Calling us RACISTS is a useful form of CENSORSHIP - IMO. And it's been working for them unfairly for a couple of generations. The leftists keep using the same old tools, but sadly we keep letting them work. If I'm being perfectly honest, I think one of our human instincts is to trust family, then community, then country in descending order; outsiders and anyone "not-like-us" instinctively make us wary. I read the Clan of the Cave Bear series, and I think it strongly supports the theory that this is inherent human behavior, that is in our DNA. The premise of the series begins with a strange circumstance where one early Cro-magnon infant survives an earthquake that killed the rest of her family/community and the baby is taken in by a Clan of Neanderthals (when both shared the planet) and was raised by them. I've dropped all the guilt over my feelings of distrust. Do you feel fear when walking alone at night and you encounter a group of ____ (not-like-you) strangers? Is that instinct or racism?
Wits_end
Level 2
Mar 22, 2019
0
It should obviously be possible.
Ironically, the ultra conservative nature of Islam should most concern those traditionally on the left.
But the left has got itself into a mess over this issue. How far does being tolerant of intolerance go? The racism card has been a useful shield to deflect criticism.
McAhuna
Level 5
Mar 20, 2019
0
When groups with names along the lines of anti-fascist start protecting islam you know society has lost all logic
Probably not. Also I believe it's pointless to even be concerned about it. The fact is that Islam is a religion, not a race. If someone throws the race wrench into it, it is illogical. At a minimum it's intellectual dishonesty and not possible to get anywhere at that point anyway.
Religion in general is based on belief. Belief doesn't require logic. Therefore logic and reason are useless in such a discussion. So, in most instances you're simply wasting time.
kravmaga
Level 5
Mar 20, 2019
0
Regarding islam being a belief not a race. I agree and if this was a small number of people using this tactic i would not be concerned. However this is ever increasingly becoming the dominate narrative of the general public. It hinders criticsm, debate and most importantly progress
@JoelB "It hinders criticsm, debate and most importantly progress ..."
Only if you let it. Truth and logic is on the side of the truth tellers in the long run. But that does not mean it's possible to convince those unwilling to be convinced.
You keep saying we can do better. That's great. What do you suggest is a better way?
Yes it’s very possible, however you must tread carefully. If they instantly respond to your criticism of the idea with “you’re a racist,” ask them which one of the 50+ races contained within modern Islam they feel you’re being racist to, or if they just think all brown people are one race? If they wait until you’ve gotten to the meat of your argument to get offended, freely and wholeheartedly admit that you may be wrong about Islam, or that your understanding of it may be conditioned incorrectly, and you’re simply trying to understand it better. This works twofold; obvious disarming qualities, and in Islam every Muslim must help any unbeliever who is honestly seeking the truth as best they can. My last piece of advice is keep away from criticizing their prophet, their are simply too few Muslims in the world with the emotional maturity to handle that. I know it sounds bad to say, but it’s one of the most true statements you can make about that whole group. Hope this helps.
StrykerWolfe
Level 5
Mar 19, 2019
1
I think this is the best answer on this i have read. I do have one hesitation. Considering that the prophet is the perfect human and the quran is the perfect book written by the perfect human......... would criticizing the quran not similarly be seen as an attack on the prophet?
@JoelB Good question, and I’m sorry I forgot to include that part in my initial response. Any direct attack on the Quran is out of the question, which is extremely annoying I might add, to the point where I never even bring up that book in conversation with Muslims. They literally believe that the Arabic version of it contains the word of God in the exact language God thinks in. Yeah.
50+ races?
@kravmaga The 50+ was meant to leave it open ended depending on how many different types of people one sees in the world. The point is that Islam is found among nearly all of them, save a couple uncontacted tribes, who don’t have much of any contemporary religion. Same goes for Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and so on. It’s universally useful whenever someone tries to call you a racist for criticizing a religion.
Start with what you want. In my case "All men are created equal and are endowed with certain rights." Its wrong to demand that women cover themselves. Its wrong to persecute "nonbelievers." Its wrong to murder people. It is good to hold open debates about what you believe even to the extent of supposed disparagement. It is wrong for those in authority to come between you and God.
Arguing ideas is good. Attacking people is bad.
RobBlair
Level 8
Mar 19, 2019
0
I definitely believe it’s possible, but decided solely by the perspective of the Islamic individual. If that person is already primed to respond defensively, however, there’s no getting past it. It all comes down to mutual respect, which seems to be in short supply. If people could just get past their own personal stigmas, and listen instead of react, more progress could be made on all fronts. We can’t understand each other if we’re no longer willing to listen, and I’m afraid the willingness to truly hear seems to have gone the way of the dodo. We have attack culture to thank for that.
That said, all that goes right out the window if I try to have a respectful conversation with an Islamic person and they hate me simply because I’m an infadel, which brings us right back to your question! I took the scenic route to tell you I have no answer...brilliant!
thewaywayback79
Level 5
Mar 19, 2019
2
The whole 'phobia' thing is a deliberate and deceptive misdirection.
First of all, Islam is a religion, not a race, so the racism charge is silly.
Secondly Islam, like all other religions, makes claims about the nature of God, the world, the good, etc... claims which lead their followers to act in certain ways in the world... and those claims, and those actions, should be evaluated just like everyone else who makes claims and promotes actions. As it happens Islam makes a lot of false and even evil claims, which lead to bad actions.
VonO
Level 7
Mar 19, 2019
2
Whilst i agree it is a deliberate misdirection. How can we avoid it
@JoelB The only way to avoid it is to not talk about it. That's the point of throwing out the racism or Islamophobe epithet. Accusing someone of something horrible simply for talking about something is a well worn silencing tactic. It's indicative that they are not interested in intellectually honest discussion. So at this point it's probably wise to simply disengage.
Occasionally you'll run across someone who may be simply repeating talking points, but are perhaps open. If that's the case, then it's usually best to be willing to not talk much, but start asking good, relevant questions. Forcing people who are at least a little interested in intellectual honesty to verbalize absurd answers aloud can sometimes go a long ways. At the minimum it can bare for all to see their motivations. It's amazing how silly someone can sound trying to explain how Islam is a race, for example.
@JoelB Not sure how you extrapolate "so they win" from what I said. You suggest I'm for throwing in the towel, when in fact I'm suggesting the exact opposite. Yes, trying to have conversations with people not interested in honest conversation is a waste of time, but I gave a pretty specific example of engaging with someone honestly if they appear to be willing.
You say we can do better. What would you suggest?
@JoelB To be sure, it can be very frustrating. I can't tell you how many times over the years in which I've attempted to engage regarding issues related to Islam and ended up completely sidetracked with defending myself against accusations of racism or islamophobia to the point that the original conversation is completely forgotten about. I just refuse to do it anymore.
One thing I'd like to point out is that, based on my own experience, I've not had this issue with friends of mine who are what I'd call "run of the mill Muslims" for lack of a better phrase. It only seems to come from what I call activist Muslims or from SJW non Muslims.
Muslims in the vein of Zuhdi Jasser are seemingly willing and able to have honest discussions; speak truth to nonsense, as it were. Even Maajid Nawaz, a very far left guy is seemingly able to honestly engage. So, I think there's hope, slim as it may be.
@kravmaga oh of course and i would never want to broad brush label anyone. Was never my intention and i agree there are moderate muslims who are doing amazing work countering radical opinions.
However my statement is broad and sweeping as it is the vast consesus of thr public who hinder speech. A perfect example would someone such as a politician who openly criticizes islam is from there on labelled a far right nazi. Nothing they could ever say should be listened to as they have permanently adopted this label
Personally, I don't give a damn if someone labels me Islamaphobic whenever I criticize the Islam religion, as I know deep down inside my criticism is valid.
SpikeTalon
Level 10
Mar 19, 2019
1
Whilst you may not care for yourself. It is having an impact on others having this conversation.
How can this change when the current immediate response is racism? How can we engage fair discussion globally
@MADcHATTER i am very well aware that islam is not a race. I never said it was a race. I said that the response is racism. It is a defensive mechanism that limits conversation and steers the direction completely. I assume this is intentional as the religion can not stand up against criticism.
The question is how do we avoid this trap altogether
@MADcHATTER surely we can do better. The uselss idiots as you call them may go silently into the night and suffer under the tyranny of suppression due to fear of offense but we can not.
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