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This is the reason I don't think women have any place in frontline work in the policeforce. (Army too)

David_Reynolds 4 Mar 12
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0

Interesting...

I remember this.

1

This is the unfortunate end result of PC culture and misguided egalitarianism. Additionally, in Sweden the policed is afraid to arrest immigrants as they will instantly be perceived as racist.

2

This video proves only one thing.....the officers in it are poorly trained.

The physical standards for most police departments is somewhat low. You don't have to be an elite physical specimen to get in, although I'm sure it helps. There are plenty of women out there with the enough physical strength and mental fortitude to be cops.

The issue I have is when they are required to do the same job but are held to a lower standard of qualification. This makes no sense to me. This can create that sense of responsibility in men when working alongside women. "My qualification was harder therefore I'll have to compensate for her" type of attitude.

No, it's strength. I know maybe one or two women who might have prevailed against this guy, and yes, it's so wrong that men are expected to do better than women. Law suits by female soldiers over injuries in training and front-line work in the US and Israel are through the roof.

@David_Reynolds

Agree to disagree I guess. If the qualification standards are the same I see no reason why women can not be police.

BTW, the video poster said at the end of the video that police reports said that two male officers were eventually called in for backup and still could not subdue the suspect.. that's five officers. So maybe you are right, it is strength. I guess this department should raise the standards for all of their officers. Or maybe just train them better, or better equip them...with tazers or mace.

@Judah80 Trouble is, women can't get in under the normal standards so they're lowered to let them pass. If I was going into a dangerous situation, both police and Amy, I'd want a male by my side. It's dangerous letting women into front line work.

@David_Reynolds

I'd argue that fewer women would get in if the standard was equal, but not none.

I purposely avoided military frontline combat because I'm not totally sold on that idea. It's a very different environment then local police. That said, I'm not totally against it if the qualification standard was the same.

2

In the US, the female cop would have clubbed, shot or tazed the imbecile. Two different men tried help the three ineffectual female police. This is also about training and methods. Not a fan of women front line troops. Police could be another matter. How do you know the guy is an immigrant?

The narrator of the video said the guy was a refugee, and Swedish police are always being ridiculed for being “racist” if they fight back. It’s sad and dangerous.
Referring to your comment about not being a fan of women on the front line - why? Hand to hand combat is very unusual on the front lines, in fact, I’d argue that if it came to that, we’ve already lost the battle. Yes, women are smaller and not generally physically equal (duh), but a 5’7” 130 lb male will also have a difficult time lifting and carrying his 6’4” 275 lb brother to safety. If a male can’t pass SOI standards, he shouldn’t be infantry, same goes for females, but if she can pass, then she should. What’s wrong with that?
Allow me to preemptively argue against “men put themselves in greater peril for women than they would for another man.” No. This is implying that marines/soldiers are out on the front lines not caring all that much if their brother is in peril. They care. They care about their brothers and will do everything in their power to save/protect/help regardless of if it’s a male or female. Unless their response to that high stress/pants shitting, scary situation is to freeze up and do nothing. That happens, and it happens to physically capable manly men. But, you never know how you’ll react until you’re in that situation. I’d rather have a weak female with a working trigger finger in my fireteam, than a frozen captain America.

@Ehague the strength and endurance requirements are not just applicable to hand to hand combat, and dragging your comrades off the battlefield.

  1. The need to just get there, with your 80+lbs of equipment (I carried 86lbs, when in the corps) is gruelling. The newer equipment is lighter, so they just find more shit for you to carry.

  2. \If a male can’t pass SOI standards, he shouldn’t be infantry, same goes for females\
    The issue with putting women in the front lines also revolves around the reality that political pressure is being placed on the military to lower standards. I think winning wars because standard are upheld is more important than the need to 'give a woman a chance to become infantry'.

  3. \but if she can pass, then she should. What’s wrong with that?\
    Assuming standards are kept up, putting women into the infantry pipeline to watch them drop out in droves because they cannot cut the mustard physically is a serious and debilitating of waste resources. Yes, that was tried, the USMC did put women through those courses as an experiment and I think one made it, because in the end the current president at the time let it be known that someone better make it.

Social engineering is not part of the equation in warfare. Defense of the national interest is the purpose. There are exceptional women who can do this. That proves the argument, if it takes a 3 sigma outlier of a women to do something 2/3rds of men can do ... put the women into something they are good at. Frankly aircraft pilot is something women have proven time and again they can do so I see no issue there.

  1. \Unless their response to that high stress/pants shitting, scary situation is to freeze up and do nothing. That happens, and it happens to physically capable manly men. \
    The issue of cowardice (allowing one's fear to rule you, instead of overcoming the fear - and everyone with ANY sense is afraid) in the face of the enemy has plagued militaries since there were armies in the field. Natural aggression is a basic measure of who might freeze ... aggression tips the balance in the fight or flight response to 'fight'. Psychological testing in many studies has shown that men at roughly one standard deviation more aggressive than women. This is the result of biology going back to before we lived in the caves, so no ... it's not a social thing. Women are more likely to freeze.

\you never know how you’ll react until you’re in that situation. \
5. Spot on. But guess what, you can simulate the stress of combat in training to a very large measure. Watching how people react and who breaks down in training does tip the hand of who will not rise up and meet the needs of the unit when the time comes. Guess which of the two groups has demonstrated the ability to handle that level of stress historically?

  1. Biology. Psychological normal males are hardwired to go out and fight for hearth and home. Look at chimps. This defend the borders, and wage war thing is far older than humanity let alone the 7000 year old western civilization we are both part of.

@Ehague, I see you were a Navy Corpsman. I served back in the 80's ... SF. (Or RAH for you new fuckers)

@BastiatLives
You make some excellent points.

  1. “Heaviness of equipment” - Yeah, you’re right about how heavy the equipment is and women can’t carry that kind of load. As you know, I was a corpsman (with HMLA 773 red dogs rah and other blue side units), my marines were by far the most physically broken (serious lumbar slipped discs requiring surgery, incurable pes planus, rotator cuff problems etc - caused by extremely heavy loads over long humps). The marines break you, physically, and then we (taxpayers) pay to care for them (also a messed up system - but the VA is a different conversation). You could say this is part of the job, but wouldn’t it be better if we could reorganize or figure out a way to not screw up our guys bodies, and in that process could utilize womens strengths in infantry, as well as decreasing the amount of medical problems for them in the future? I believe giving this topic more thought could greatly enhance our military and simultaneously be more cost effective.
  2. “Women in infantry is politically pressured” - I agree, it is.
  3. “Assuming physical standards are kept up/USMC passed a girl bc Obama let it be known someone better make it” - I don’t believe standards were lowered (this is why they failed). And about Obama putting pressure on them to pass a woman is speculation, unless you have a credible source that vouches for this thinking, I’m going to assume Obama didn’t do anything about it. If he did have a hand in it, then I suspect more women would have passed rather than just one. Also, if what you said about only 2/3 of men pass is true, then 1/3 of men don’t pass, and women make up a very marginal percent of those that didn’t pass, so I can’t imagine they used up the expansive resources you implied. Maybe there should be a better vetting process to make up for those 1/3 of men that don’t pass.
  4. “Fight or flight response shows women more likely to freeze” - good point, I haven’t read that study (feel free to cite to it. I’d love to read it). Maybe it’ll convince me.
  5. “Guess who has been shown to handle that kind of stress historically?” - duh, it’s men. Historically speaking, (in the US) women have never been allowed in combat, so I guess we’ll never truly know until it happens. The Kurds and other groups are putting their women in combat roles, and last I heard they were doing pretty well.
  6. “Biology” - okay so, you’re right. I’m not trying to try to convince you that women are better than men at fighting, or even just as good. I guess I’m trying to convince you that we should be utilizing women’s strengths in combat. Strategy and tactics are ever evolving, and to not recognize a resource is not very wise.
    Agree or disagree, I respect the shit out of you and every other brave soul that raised their right hand. Semper fi, devil.

@Ehague \ (serious lumbar slipped discs requiring surgery, incurable pes planus, rotator cuff problems etc - caused by extremely heavy loads over long humps).\
The US Army messes its infantry up too. I have a friend, 3ID, was in Iraq in 2003 when we overran the place and he suffered mightily. His back, neck, feet, and shoulders are fubar. He is 5 years younger than me and looks 10 years olders.

@BastiatLives
Yeah. I didn’t mean to make it sound like marines are the only ones to suffer. I hope he’s receiving the care he rightfully deserves.
We could discuss ways to prevent injuries like this. I’m kind of loving those new robot dogs that carry big equipment. Anyway... with more robot dogs to carry loads, or something similar to that, could open infantry positions for women.

2

I agree. My husband is in the fire service and knowing there are several women among the ranks, terrifies me. Most company men would inherently jeopardize their own safety help their female counterparts first, which makes the risks exponentially higher. I won’t even get into the politics surrounding station life. A vast majority of firewives share the same frustration.

I know, there's many instances with the US army where female soldiers were in danger and the males took stupid risks to protect them. FYI, my father was in the Fire Service too.

I posted this earlier. [slug.com]

@David_Reynolds The ultra-feminist movement is toxic. Why are women killing themselves, in a vain attempt to be “equal” to men?! I would never want to be a man’s equal. I have my own unique qualities that separate and define my skill set as a female and I strive, daily, to hone those abilities. If these ladies really want to “fight the patriarchy”, they should embrace their femininity and do THAT better, rather than trying to “build a better man”. The irony there is laughable!

1

Unreal...

Wow, you're attitude is awesome. Yes, we owe women so much, they are our betters in so many ways. We need to stop trying to compare ourselves, and instead be glad we're so different.

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