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Do you want freedom to acquire as much money as you can? What about your employees who have to work two or three jobs and still live in poverty? Their tough luck or that's the way you would want to be treated in their position. I knew a guy back in the 60s, factory worker, who told me the best money he ever made was $1.25 an hour. His wife stayed home and managed it while raising three children. He was easily making payments on a house and car and still had a little left over to save and have some occasional enjoyment. What happened?

For every billionaire there are one thousand people just as smart, just as dedicated, just as hard working that have never hit that sweet spot where everything comes together and you take off. CEO pay can be over 900% of the median workers pay. Service economy with firms each offering what is claimed an added efficiency but is really offering ways to keep wages low. Associates instead of employees. Using hiring services so the employee won't even be on the books.

In contrast, the CEO-to-typical-worker compensation ratio (options realized) was 20-to-1 in 1965 and 58-to-1 in 1989. CEOs are even making a lot more—about five times as much—as other earners in the top 0.1%. From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure).

What is the best worker in today's world? The person desperate enough to do the most work for the least pay.

Pand0ro 7 Aug 1
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1

It is pointless to grouse about wealth distribution - it is natural for it to be unequal. Like most human endeavors it follows the Pareto Principle or the Power-Law Distribution. Some Billionares are greedy, some are munificent; "where your treasure is, there your heart is also." There will always be wealth inequality. We must encourage an economic system that takes away obstacles from those that want to "make a go of it." I want equal opportunity more than equal outcome.

[resumelab.com]

BTW - If I were graduating from High School today, I'd go into plumbing - you will ALWAYS have a job and make good do so.

4

And no, for every billionaire there are not 1000 equals who were just “unlucky”.
You do no become a billionaire by just being lucky... and they create thousands of jobs and hundreds of millionaires in the process.

Should they pay there fair share of tax? Absolutely... start there but to state that they at not special... wrong.
A well thought out wealth tax will resolve many of the issues.

Make the starting playing field level, and make laws to ensure fair market practices...
After that... yes, you should be allowed to make as much money as you want.

People like Bezos, Musk, Gates, Jobs would probably be about where they are today under different circumstances. There are very few exceptional people like them in the world. But you do have to be fortunate along with competent. Responsible people running businesses can be ruined by events they have no control over like a riot destroying their building and stock or an economic downturn like we are experiencing today.

Absolutely Right.

Well, except for that “Wealth Tax” bit ...
I think “Special Punishment” for having managed to become wealthy is still punishment, a disincentive to continue to achieve, and counter productive.

Many many people say, "They should pay their fair share." But we hear little about what fair share means. I'm up for a flat tax of 10% for every dollar above $15K per year and ZERO deductions. We would eliminate the need for the IRS and everybody would have a stake.

7

It is not true that life has become harder...
Life has become easier... when compared with people living 50, 100 and 150 years ago, we love fantastic lives.
Our life expectancy is higher than ever before.
We suffer less pain, are hungry less often and are warmer and drier.
The average person is living a life that only the very rich could dream of 100 years ago.

The mistake you make is comparing the average person with the 1%.

Your definition of poverty is skewed.

If some are disproportionally rich... yes that may be true... however it is the employers who take all the risks, who made all the effort... and it is the employees who just pitch up and demand a Wage.
Nothing stops the employee to start his own enterprise.

Why could someone with a decent factory job in the 60s support a spouse and children, pay for a house and a car and still have a little left over at the end of the month, and a person with that same type of job today not be able to do that?

@Pand0ro
Because the example you provided is False.
Whether the guy told you a lie or you simply misunderstood what you were told, the example is False.
If you start with a False Premise you get a Expect a False Response.

Today a decent low level income from a Temp Employment Agency (providing factory work) starts about $14 p/hr / $560 p/wk / $29,120 p/yr ... this is a job that IF you can actually WORK at all, you could get TODAY RIGHT NOW ... There are THOUSANDS of these jobs available EVERYWHERE. Although a lot of those cheap jobs DID disappear to China ... many are coming back ... and there STILL were Thousands of unfilled jobs.

On these numbers YOU CAN “Support” a Spouse and Children ... Rent or maybe even Buy a home and have a Car ...
It wouldn’t be living in Grand Style but it wouldn’t be “Dirt Poor” either.

IF You’re a family at these numbers, there’s LOTS of Government Assistance Programs geared toward You and Your Family ... Food Stamps, Electrical Power Assistance, Heating Assistance .... Children’s FREE Health Care ...

However, After a period of time, you can move into being hired directly and get a few more dollars per hour but ... if you develop your skills and look for the next step up ... you could be at $20 to $25 p/hr in a short time.

CAN a person do what you ask? YES.
The question is, WILL They?
Truthfully, the answer is More Often YES than NO
The “homeless people” you seem so worried about are an Extreme Minority.
They are people who have either GIVEN UP or NEVER TRIED.

There are many differences today however ...
How many cell phones at about $40p/mo? ($480 p/yr each)
Do they have Cable? Satellite? at about $100 p/mo ($1200 p/yr)
Do they have InterNet at about $30 p/mo ($360 p/yr)
Does the wife cook from scratch?
Do they use “name brand” or “store brand”?
Do they “shop” or do they simply “buy”?

1

Your question to What happened?
Here is what happened:
The bills they had was Electric, phone, and sometimes water/sewage
You could pickup a decent used car for about $250
car insurance was about 5 to 10 dollars/Month
Gas was around the average of .30 to .35
Homes were on average 500- 800 Sq/Ft, in most places in the US you are not allowed to build anything under 1200 Sq/Ft.
Because of the smaller square footage it cost less to heat, and would be painted every year building up layers and sealing any gaps air tight.
Most of the country did not have cable, they used an antenna to watch free through the air broadcasts.
Their music came free through the air as well.
If they wanted to watch a new movie, they would dress up and go to the movie theater which cost .70 to $1.20. Matinees would cost about half.
When they bought shoes they would take them to shoe repair to have new soles installed and the leather reconditioned.
They would get the couch reupholstered, will take care of what they bought like it was worth a million bucks whether it was new or used.
If something broke they did not throw it out, they either fixed it or took it to someone who could fix it.
Cheap vacuum tubes were still available into the early 80s cost a couple bucks at most.

At that time no one care about clothing brands like they do now, unless they were work related then you had devoted customers.
At that time they had one phone in the house, that was it. There was no video games (except at an arcade), no in game purchases
no public internet
no subscription streaming services
no unnecessary expenditures
no buying something new when something broke or worn out
no buying new clothes for the siblings below the oldest (if they were the same sex/gender) the got hand me downs or a pair of slacks were cut and sewn into a skirt

Those generations was who practiced repaired reused repurposed or recycled before it even became a popular thing, it was just life.

If people dumped all the luxuries today and only go with the necessities, they will also have more money.

That does not explain the homeless camps today where people are living even more frugally than the average person in the 80s.

@Pand0ro
Are you kidding? You claim they are living frugally compared to the 80s ... then I guess you have no concept as to “frugal in the 80s” was ...

Wait ... “...even more frugally than the average person in the 80s”?

I’m really not sure what you’re asking here.

First, a lot of these homeless people are mentally messed up ... wrong as it might seem, are responsible for their situation ... and they make INCREDIBLY BAD Decisions.

Second, a lot of these homeless people are drug addicted ... there’s no way to be drug addicted and be living “frugally”

Third, I have to assume you never were “homeless” or “lived on the street” ... I have ... and there’s NOTHING “frugal” in that lifestyle.

About the most “frugal” a lifestyle you can have if you’re on your own is a shitty SRO with a hotplate and refrigerator.

Living “homeless” is EXPENSIVE because Every Bite, Every Drink, Every Piece of Clean Clothing, Everything You “Own”, costs You Money NOW at FULL Retail Price.

@Bay0Wulf I have been very fortunate in my life. What I was referring to was the explosion of homelessness. Did all those people suddenly become lazy and irresponsible? I agree that a lot of homeless people are mentally ill or alcohol and drug addicted. Why is it that a person making minimum wage cannot support themselves on one job?

@Pand0ro
Because “Minimum Wage” is NOT and NEVER WAS designed to be a “Living Wage”.
Because these people were NOT taught ... by ANYONE ... how to “work”.
They were given unreasonable expectations but not the means to reach even reasonable expectations.
Basically their fantasy of living the “Hollywood” lifestyle collapsed...
On TV no-one “works”, everyone has everything, no-one is poor ...

To be specific, these people ran into reality and were simply unable to cope.

Very few of those people had ever run into true adversity ... never had to fend for themselves ... never had to “save for a rainy day” ...

If you really look into it, I can guarantee that MOST of those people come from at least lower middle class homes or better. I guarantee NOT ONE (in their right mind) comes from a “poor” home. People who grow up “poor” or in “poverty” LEARN to Survive or LEARN to “Game” the Government Money System.

The guy who told you he made $1.25 p/hr ($50 p/wk ... $2,600 p/yr) in the 60’s and was able to afford ... a house, a car and 3 kids on his $2,600 was maybe doing that but you’re talking about scraping the bottom at all times.

In the mid 60s I got my first job at 8 (where I got a pay envelope). I made about $18 p/wk working in an apple orchard. $18 was A LOT of money for an 8 year old kid but I came from an upper middle class household so ... it WAS a lot ... and I didn’t have to contribute to the household but ... There’s NO WAY that guy made $50 p/wk and afforded what he told you he did.

TODAY ... I could support myself on ONE JOB paying MINIMUM WAGE ... it wouldn’t be a great life ... in fact, it would be barely scraping along, but, looking at the numbers and knowing the raw basic minimum costs, I know it can be done today as easily as I did it in the 70s.
It would be nothing to brag about and I wouldn’t have any more “goodies” than I did when I lived in a $35 p/wk SRO in the early 70s (I functionally left home at 16) but it could still be done ... but ... you HAVE TO Want to do it.
Its NO Picnic ... Its NOT Easy ... Its just Doable.
That’s why I feel no pity or even badly for people who are homeless today. I’ve been there and done that at various stages of my life. Honestly, the younger I was at the time, the more I enjoyed it ... the freedom ... of it.

You need to understand ...
I left home early because I wanted to.
I lived a pretty rough life until my mid 20’s because I chose to live that way with my decisions.
I went through a lot of really rough times and they were MY own doing but when I talk about this stuff, I KNOW it because I LIVED it and I have NO Complaint.
I climbed the ladder over the years and became quite successful. I could have done it faster...easier if I had been willing to compromise on doing things MY way but I didn’t. In my later 20s I was in a car wreck which cost me 4 years before I could walk again.
I have paid a price because I refuse to do things the way others want me to.
Living MY Life MY Way has NOT Been Cheap ... and its NOT for Everybody ... but I Am Happy with the Result.

People who are “Homeless” are that way because ... One Way Or Another ... THEY CHOOSE to Be.

@Bay0Wulf Actually, it was designed to push black people out of the agricultural workforce.

Before the minimum wage, they could negotiate salaries to be competitive; after the minimum wage, they lost that one advantage, which made it possible for them to make a living.

@TheHerrDark
Well ... Thomas Sowell’s piece was very well stated and, if you watched it, you should have noticed it didn’t mention “Agricultural” at all. This, I am sure was completely intentional.

The fact is that you are wrong in your supposition.

Starting at the age of 8 and continuing into my 20’s I worked several “Agricultural” jobs. Several. At 8 it was apple orchards where I picked up fallen apples for making cider. Every agricultural job I ever had was paid as “piece work” and most of the “regular workers” were Black, Hispanic or Latino. Even though I was only 8 I was at no disadvantage to older workers because we were all paid by the “piece”.
In apples, carrots and potatoes typically the “piece” was a bushel. That is, for picking up drops in the early 60s, I got paid 0.25 per bushel ... as did the 16 year old kid doing the same job. The only limitation was my speed and endurance. Honestly, the regular seasonal cropworkers have ALWAYS been much faster than I was able to be. When I became a Picker, my bushel price went up to 1.50 the same as every other Picker.
As I got older, my ability to do cropwork always made for a seasonally available side job. Farms and Orchards don’t ever have enough “hands” during harvest so they don’t care what time you arrive or leave or if you’re Green with Purple Polka Dots or Male or ... as long as you can harvest correctly and not damage the item or the plant. They’ll pay you for the work you produced. Sometimes there were “Bonus” bumps if you produced more than a certain amount in a given time period but that number was very high and I very rarely qualified because they tended to use the “Regular Seasonal People” as an estimate for peak production.

Personally, I have always, even as an adult ... a Locksmith doing Masterkeying ... preferred receiving and paying by piecework (even though my Chinese girlfriend could key almost 2 to my 1 after I showed her how) because it gives an incentive to produce.

So ... whatever the reason was, and I tend to agree with Sowell, I can promise you that it “Minimum Wage” was not designed to drive Blacks out of the Agricultural Business.

@TheHerrDark I have heard Professor Sowell talk about this subject. the minimum wage was created by Unions and the Politicians in California, to keep kids, like Bayowulf from getting their higher paid factory work, later as Blacks moved around the Country, it was used to keep them from taking the Union jobs. At no time was Agriculture ever a hard fought for job. Factory work. Yes!

0

I think you make your point well. Times are different now than they were in the 60's. My mother was able to pay her own way through college with a part-time job back then. Those days are long gone.

My rent for my low end apartment is over half my paycheck. And I'm not making minimum wage either! If not for my wife working a similar paying job, we wouldn't be able to afford car payments and medical bills. When she was unemployed, we went without a car and we had to avoid going to the doctor at all costs. We had to be frugal with our purchases. Grocery money was always tight and we NEVER got new clothes - always Goodwill. It was a rough way to live!

Even now, with two decent earning jobs, there's no way we could afford kids. Maybe 10 years from now... when I'm 44. I don't know how some people do it!

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult to make a living today than it was years ago?

@Pand0ro
Part of the Reason? Only one part and there are many more.

In the 60’s a Full Package Roadrunner was $2950 Complete (which was a pretty decent muscle car) That’s just shy of 85 ounces of 1960s Gold ($35.50 per oz. from 1953-1967)

Today that amount of Gold is valued at about $160,000 ($1994.00 per oz yesterday ... thats a 54x straight line devaluation of the Dollar.

Or, comparing “apples” to “apples” ... a pretty well tricked out comparable 2020 Camaro would be $37,000 (about 18.5 ounces of Gold or 12.5x the value of the Roadrunner)

Yes, but here is something that most people do not think about and that they believe that situation is the same is everywhere, and it is not.
These are just a couple of examples, and these are real: When I was going to college, I met a young lady and her mother, they were from California but going to school at Slippery Rock. Why?
What Slippery Rock charged for four years was just only one year to a third of the same equivalent program in a California school.

Now a few years back, there is a janitor on a report I watched who makes $50,000/yr in NYC. He does not live there though he rides a commuter bus 2 hrs each way M-F year-round from the Poconos because he cannot afford to live in NYC, lives comfortably in Poconos while buying his own home and even has savings.

Back in California, those who get counted in the homeless figures have jobs, retirement, disability but are living out of their vehicles by choice, and they have savings because their most significant expense is fuel maintenance and insurance.
Some are converting box trucks or work vans to tiny homes and make stealth box living and save their money, but under the legal definition, they get counted as being homeless, which skews the figures.

At one time, hobos were those that traveled to work, and they never stopped working, as soon as the work in the north they would head south where other work picked up, and vice versa.

I know because I was homeless, and I started researching this and found some interesting facts.

@TheHerrDark Though you make some interesting points, I don't think they negate my point either. The situation I described is everywhere. It's the majority of America.

What you're describing is people taking fairly extreme means to try to work in this system - living in RVs (not the glamorous life I'd chose) or commuting 4 hours a day. Those are not normal ways of life and most people would find that stressful and unsustainable. I don't think either of those lifestyles would be called "The American Dream."

I appreciate your insight as a formerly homeless person. That's an experience I haven't had personally. I'm lucky and grateful. My wife was homeless for a time of her life before we were together and most of my insights about it come from what she has told me.

@RavenMStark I think if you ask the person commuting 4hrs / day yet able to save, own a home, and live in a nice area with only a Janitor's background, they are living the American Dream. And remember, the "American Dream" is different from person to person - unless you absorb the entertainment industry's definition.

@Pand0ro The reason is, most people lived on little money! Now, everyone expects to be middle class. The working class in the years up to 1950's both father and mother worked. And every kid that could, worked. You are talking about such a rich Country, you can not imagine the way most people, and they were not middle class lived. (One fellow posting here had five daughters and their house had one, and it was Small, Bathroom. This was usual for middle class.) The mother might take in washing, or ironing, it was not what any woman today would consider a job! The kids cut grass with a hand mower, or shoveled snow, with a hand held snow shovel. Americans were poor, until the 1950's, just like most of the world. Look at pictures from those days. Our homeless have more, then all of working poor had in the South in the 1930's. Hope we do not have to return to that before Americans wake up, and stop listening to the fear mongers.

0

Umm ... is that actually something you wrote or just some garbage you read that you decided to copy and share here?

I was just wondering at seeing all the homeless camps springing up in the USA trying to figure out how all those people suddenly became lazy and quit working. What happened to the good old American spirit of hard work and living the dream.

@Pand0ro
Well, unfortunately you ask a lot of questions in that one post and it would take a couple days to explain it all.
Above I responded to some of the aspects.

Basically, most of those homeless people are homeless for several reasons but it boils down to one ...
They were brought up with impossible expectations and, when their expectations didn’t materialize, they find themselves unable to figure out what to do next.

“Participation Awards” are a symptom ... if you’ve ever gotten one and didn’t realize you’d just been handed a pile of Dog Crap ... you’re a likely candidate for homelessness.
A lot of people are being told that if they do well in school and/or college that the World will come knocking at their door laden with Treasure ... but it doesn’t.
People grow up thinking that chores are for other people and actually never learn HOW to work.
The DemLeft (really) tells people that there’s HUNDREDS of “Free Money” Programs so ... Why Should They Learn to Work?
People were told that they didn’t have to DO Anything to Deserve a Home Loan that they could NEVER Afford because Home Loans were made “Fair” by Government Fiat (DemLeft Idea) so they “Bought” Homes on credit and lost them when it turned out that They ACTUALLY had to PAY the Mortgages instead of Lease a New Car or Buy a 48” Flat Screen.

People were conned by the DemLeft that Instant Gratification was all that counted and SOMEBODY OUT THERE was going to GIVE Them a Job making 6 Figures ...

Think I’m kidding?

The DemLeft is pushing for a “Basic Living Income” of about $1200 p/mo for EVERYBODY ... Pretending that $14,400 p/yr will Mean Something
The DemLeft is pushing for a National Minimum Wage of $15 p/hr ($600 p/wk ... $31,200 p/yr) EVEN if the Employee has NO Skills
EVEN as THEY Warn that SSI, Welfare, MedicAid are ALL Running Out of Money
EVEN as THEY Struggle to figure out how to PAY Promised Pensions & Retirement Packages.
EVEN as Companies are in the Same Boat due to DemLeft requirements

No, that is from observing. From the 60s to the mid-80s things were basically the same, and from the mid-80s on, it was changing.
Then after hearing people who took up the minimalist lifestyle and especially after Clinton had a surplus finally realized what was going on and why the current workers could not make it but older workers could. When you do not spend money you can stockpile it.
Hurricane Andrew was taken care of quickly and efficiently because various government-funded programs were available and personnel trained for these situations, When Katrina hit had canceled all those same programs and the training cut because they were not needed anymore.

Think of this, if you did not pay for water/sewage, electricity, cable, rent/mortgage payment how much money would you have in the bank?

@TheHerrDark
Above you said you were “homeless” yet you ask “...how much money would you have in the bank?”
Which is interesting because your actual cost of living when you’re homeless is much higher in many aspects.

@Bay0Wulf This is how everyone classifies being homeless: Not having a permanent physical address.
I want you to explain this statement, "your actual cost of living when you're homeless is much higher in many aspects."
What aspects are you talking about in this statement?

@TheHerrDark
Hmmm ...
Having spent a few years basically “on the road” (no permanent physical address) but with easily marketable skills, (grill cook, construction trades) I basically hitch-hiked and bummed around looking at the USA and living off of cash in pocket.
Then, in my later 20’s, having a good job but suddenly finding myself without a “home” through the fall, winter and spring in Brooklyn, NY, I think, it could be said that I’ve been “homeless”.
Not to say that I was “homeless” like what most people see ... the wretched and wrecked refuse ... the dregs and leavings of society ... the ones who simply have given up on life ... on themselves ... still, I was “homeless”.
If what I see as homeless people now are an example, I really have little sympathy for them. Most are receiving Government Funding and have available several different forms of Government (Taxpayer) Assistance and Aid Packages and Programs ...

However, Living in the Streets ... being Homeless ... IS in many ways more expensive than alternatives. The closer you live to the Streets, the more expensive it gets but ... the further you get from the Streets, the less expensive it gets.
You have to think in terms of Basic Economics.
In the streets, you have to eat ... every “meal” has to be bought right now and mostly, consumed, right now with no storage options ... that’s expensive. Shelter is always questionable and, depending on what you’re using as shelter, there’s every chance you can be evicted by someone bigger, stronger or simply more “popular” than you. Arranging for shelter on a nightly basis ... even if its just a box ... can be “expensive” even if its only in time used doing that rather than something more “profitable”. If you’re stupid enough to be an addict to alcohol, to drugs, to cigarettes ...
EVERYTHING comes at Full Retail Price (plus often an added Premium)
TIME which is the Most Valuable item you have left is Squandered Wholesale if you’re basically in “Survival Mode”.
Even if you’re reduced to begging (which I’ve never done) or scrounging for temporary work (which I have) ... everything else you have to do to keep yourself together detracts from your ability to “Make Money” ... Costs Time ... leaves you with fewer options.
People who’ve never tried it have little understanding of the Expenses ... it doesn’t come CHEAP.

It might seem strange to put this in this reply but ...
Mankind ... Civilization ... really only began when We moved from being “Hunter-Gatherers” (ie. Homeless) to becoming “Agrarian” (Towns & Cities ie. “Home Owners&rdquo😉

Being Homeless is simply returning to one form or another of “Hunter Gatherer”

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