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Tribalism is human nature. A strong unified tribe (which countries are being diluted now) competing with other tribes has fueled progress and development much longer than modern capitalism.
Anthropologists think this is why Europe developed so much faster than say Africa, etc. because the Germans, French, yada yada were always trying to be the best/first at new things.
Capitalism is simply individual competition that leads to such huge (monopoly) corporations that the corporation has more power than the people/government. Tribal Darwinism is MUCH more Powerful.
Joahna Goldberg - I strongly disagree with Tribalism being destructive. Tribalism is very EVOLUTIONARY!!!!! But when you dilute the tribe - you weaken it!

PostHuman 6 Aug 21

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Well the ideal in the founding of the United States that comes from Biblical principle is one people out of many tribes with the same ideal. It is easy to see which political party has striven for the vision to be fulfilled and which party has always warred against the principle. By the way the Bible is filled with prophecy about the end of tribalism. Not necessarily the end of nation states. But the end of tribalism.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots (that is the messiah) .....6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

The animals are illustrating different peoples no longer warring against one another. But living in peace together. The child illustrates real Christians. The mountain illustrates the Messiah's invisible kingdom. A kingdom that influences the nations for the better. The snake holes illustrate evil in the world. No use me listing many more of these. It gives you the proper idea of what these prophecies are about.

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In “Suicide of the West” Jonah Goldberg references Economist Friedrich Hayek who says “humans are programmed to understand the world in personal and tribal terms.”

However, Goldberg says the development of modernity resulted from learning to hold our tribal instincts in check.

“It’s natural to give preferences to family and friends — members of the tribe,” Goldberg writes. He says seeing strangers as trustworthy individuals with rights and dignity “does not come naturally to us. We have to be taught — carefully taught.”

Controlling tribalism builds cooperative societies. The opposite always leads to “honour” cultures, an obsessive sensitivity to offence, gangs, vigilantes, violence and bloodshed.

GeeMac Level 8 Aug 21, 2019
1

I’ll respectfully disagree with your assertion that capitalism leads to corporations that are more powerful than government. By its very nature (monopoly on the use of force, ability to tax, etc) government is vastly more powerful than any corporation within its jurisdiction. And just as hungry to grow. The problem as I see it occurs when corporations (sometimes but not always threatened with regulation) trade something to the government in exchange for favored status. The result is a partnership between government and the corporation, sometimes referred to as cronyism.

The pre-"democracy" version was mercantilism.

@govols Yes. Later "corporatism." Which the socialists all accuse the US of being, and they are right. But solutions are hard to come by, so long as money buys votes, and if you have free speech, it always does. Faceborg and Google market products for money, so how come they can't "market" politicians (and thus political stances) the same way? Or do it on their own nickel, since it doesn't cost much for them. Then Zuckerberg becomes Mussolini the fascist, as the government does what HE wants, instead of what the Koch brothers want.

It's all just a nasty, nasty problem. There is a lot less corporatism in Europe now than the US. Whatever they do to keep it down in Norway and Sweden and France, the US should be doing.

Even free speech may have to go on the table, as it does with all business (commercial) speech. You can't mislabel a product with anything you like. When you "sell" a politician, though, you're selling a product. It's an ad campaign. Why we insist it's not, I don't really see. Tradition. But a reasoned argument on that point would be hard to defend. You can say things in the US about politicians like "Hillary had Epstein strangled, but not Monica, since Monica was "doing" her too." That would get you sued in the UK, and rightly so. It's so damned outrageous that I don't know why it's legal. Perhaps it should not be.

Also: we don't let foreign countries have "free speech" in our political campaigns. So how come multinational corporations get to?

@Babou Yes, modern corporate media has a kind of influence that can have a major impact on "democracy," to the extent that such an institution still exists. Yes, money and politics is a dangerous stew of stinking doo-doo. You're right that solutions are hard to come by where the assumption of free-speech and corporate association is built into the house of social governance.

Weird thing is, alt-right, far-right, portions of the left wing, all sort of share a view of anti-global corporatism, local agriculture and production where possible, and a few other issues. It's a hard bunch of stuff to negotiate where the people who recognize the problems are almost theologically opposed.

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Tribalism is a term used to frame the conversation of groups into a negative connotation. Like all of this stuff--or most of it--we talk about, there are good sides and bad sides to things. Nationalist is used as a pejorative, and it's used to describe 'neighborism'. Political correctness is politeness/courtesy, or staunchly oppressive policing of free thinking. Capitalism can be good or it can be bad--so can socialism or communism. Usually better in theory than in practice. Capitalism builds the imperfection of human beings into the system, and that's why I think it's a superior system. The good in socialism and communism is stuck in the fantasy of Utopia, because it ignores the inescapable imperfection in human beings.

Our language is too restricted. We get trapped into recycling terms, but end up confusing communication in the process. I've stopped using the term pair 'right-left' because of this drift. Now, I say left/non-left, as it's actually more proportionally attuned to the division between the terms. We need to introduce new terms into the lexicon. I think we've stretched the ones we have as far as they can go. Aren't there linguists somewhere thinking about this stuff? Have they not noticed the problem?

Any way, there's nothing wrong with tribalism until it's used to marginalize or oppress another group. The tragedy is we lose what's good about tribalism just because we start conflating terms.

chuckpo Level 8 Aug 21, 2019

I think it might have been some of the linguists out there who figured out the whole idea of screwing with meaning ON PURPOSE in order to manipulate "the masses."

@govols, haha, yeah--probably true.

@govols Nuance is susceptible to manipulation, I think.

That's a real problem with the idea of a ruling class. They do nuance through dense paragraphs of inaccessible language where a page or two of plain language unpacking would better serve the broader conversation. A minority class full of nuance is discouraging and dialoguing the rules that a majority will have imposed from above. The s👎ide topic among the minority elite is about how dumb the masses are.

3

Some points to ponder -

  • The tribalism of the Japanese caused them to forgo modern development due to their desire of isolationism
  • The explosion of human development/progress coincides with capitalism.
  • I've always compared capitalism to pure democracy. If you don't like a huge corporation you can choose to stop voting for them.
  • Diversity is only a strength when you have a common culture - "Bowling Alone"-Putnam

@PostHuman, so I'm just clarifying. It sounds like you're promoting segregation. Is that right? What would that look like?

Hello PostHuman. 'We need to divide into closer knit tribes'. In other words, community, no? A group of people living in the same place and by shared values.

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