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Wouldn’t call myself an SJW, but here’s something to think about. What do you think?

So, I watched “Little Giants” again and I’ve been thinking. I know many of you are hard- core conservatives, but please take an objective look at this.

Has anyone ever noticed that for a long time it has been pretty socially acceptable for girls to be “tomboys”, yet it has always been, and still is, looked down upon to be male and feminine? I wonder why this is.

Think about it: most girls go through a tomboy phase in their childhood, and a lot of conservative parents aren’t very concerned. Mine weren’t. We see tomboyish female characters frequently in the media- for example, Disney movies like Mulan, and sports shows. No parent is censoring content such as this from their children because of the female characters who aren’t conforming to traditional girly stereotypes. How is this different from men not being stereotypically masculine?

Also, most people don’t automatically assume a girl is gay if she is athletic and/ or presents in a more tomboyish/ badass way instead of being feminine. However, a boy who acts and/ or presents in a more effeminate/ submissive way is both looked down upon and presumed as gay. This is interesting to me because I have quite a few male friends who are very effeminate, yet are straight and love their girlfriends.

What’s more, according to tradition, it is unacceptable for girls to wear pants and for boys to wear skirts. Why is it celebrated nowadays for girls to wear pants and shorts, play football, have short hair, and own businesses; yet, it is weird for boys to wear skirts, dresses and makeup? Traditional Irishmen wore kilts, which are damn close to skirts, and nobody judges them. Also, European makeup was originally only for men. It wasn’t a staple of femininity until later. What about it makes traditionally- minded parents disown their sons when their daughters can make them proud wearing makeup and a suit?

Of course, tomboys aren’t completely accepted, but it’s easier to be a tomboy in society than an effeminate man. Where do you think this double standard comes from? Do you think we are bad parents for letting our daughters present how they feel comfortable, (within reasonable bounds of course), but not letting our sons do the same? If your son was a reasonable age to wear makeup and wanted to, would you be disappointed?

If you had a son who was of a reasonable age and wanted to wear makeup and dresses, how would you feel and react? (Assuming he’s straight and cisgender)

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Tati 6 Apr 29
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Less than one in a hundred may be regarded as a tomboy, or in the case of a male, sissy without them being gay. But even if fully gay, it's not their fault they were born in the wrong body. You see it in homo sapiens, but hardly if ever in the animal kingdom.

angelo Level 8 Apr 30, 2020

This may be true, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s more socially acceptable to be a tomboy than a sissy. Why do you think that is? Online, most people attributed it to deep rooted misogyny within society and patriarchal values that degrade women. I was interested to see if anyone here had that opinion.

What do you mean by wrong body? Do you mean it’s not a gay person’s fault they are attracted to the same gender, because they cannot control what gender they are? Interesting perspective, and I agree. Or do you mean trans people? I’m a little confused by the statement. I wonder why we only see those tendencies in Homo sapiens. However, there are examples of gay partnerships in the animal kingdom.

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I'm just gonna tackle this one from a personal straight shooting perspective. Yes. I HAVE pretty much always noticed that I'm attracted to tomboys and repulsed by sissies. I'm gonna also observe of myself that the one drag queen that I've know was sort of hot in drag and sort of repulsive in queer male mode. I've known several gay guys that are as or more masculine than I am, and prefer being around that sort than flamers (although, a few of them have been funny as hell, but often uncomfortably too sexually topical in their wisecracks for my sensibilities).

As for a personal relation developing in sexuality and personality expression, I think I would encourage males to learn to express positive masculine characteristics and females to express positive feminine characteristics, but I would also try to be supportive toward any efforts they were making to explore their own curiosities about social roles and expectations. Normal is an important aspect of a society. Walks on the wild side are allowed and encouraged, but grounding in normalcy is desirable.

govols Level 8 Apr 29, 2020
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What is "reasonable age"? 7? 13? 15 ?17? 20?

I have a question for you as well. Assuming your "cis" gendered cross dressing boy were in your locus of friends - and assuming you are a biological cis female attracted to boys...would you be attracted to this boy yourself? Would you like him to ask you to go to Prom? Suppose he is wearing the cutest little skirt or other feminine outfit on Prom night...and his makeup is flawless. Would you as a girl who is attracted to boys feel happy and proud to be escorted by this boy? Or would you in reality - in your heart of hearts be embarrassed. Would you be envious of the other girls whose Prom dates were handsome well groomed young males?
As a woman of marriageable age would you be proud to have a husband who openly wears womens clothing and wears makeup on his face? Or would you be looking about for a more masculine man to makes your heart flutter and your toes curl when he makes love to you...

iThink Level 9 Apr 29, 2020

And that’s a good point as well. I suppose what I meant by “reasonable age” was whatever age you yourself deems appropriate for someone to start wearing makeup and make his/ her own decisions. And you’re right- if I was a straight female I wouldn’t be attracted to such a man, although I wasn’t taking into consideration how attracted a female would be to an extremely feminine man. I do have friends dating effeminate men- granted, they don’t wear dresses or makeup. Interesting perspective.

@Tati as for women who are attracted to or married to effeminate men I believe they are women who really are not interested in having a monogamous marriage. They likely will eventually evolve into a cuckolding relationship. She will openly entice and have sexual relations with other men and her husband being a true beta male will go along with it. In all likelihood her beta husband will be of a status which allows him to provide the wife with income commensurate with a lifestyle she wants or demands. She will have her "cake and eat it too" - to use an old expression.
Such a woman in not interested in marital bliss so much as she is primarily and primally motivated by lust and materialism. Her effeminate beta husband will play along because he is too weak to do anything about it. Nevertheless deep in the recesses of his mind he knows he is being insulted and humiliated. It is not a happy marriage. Eventually the woman and her beta husband will be profoundly unhappy - unfulfilled. Angry and suffering with a psychosis that can only be appeased with drugs and alcohol or god forbid suicide - or god forbid murder suicide.
There is so much more at stake regarding human sexuality - it is vapid and meaningless without the deep and spiritually emotional connectivity that comes (ideally) with a nuclear family dynamic. A mommy and a daddy and normally developing progeny is what life is all about.
The "thrill or novelty" of superficial sexual proclivities are temporal at best. Over time it takes more and more extreme steps to get the same thrill a person first experienced when they dared to step out of the realm of "normalcy" ...it gained them attention and notoriety they otherwise would never have experienced but that wears off quickly.
No, the only thing that comes close to offering lasting fulfillment is a profound commitment of a man and a woman in a marital bond. Growing their own family and the love keeps on flowing as their children grow and eventually do the same.

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Evolution for sexually reproducing animals is all about sex and nothing else. Fitness is technically defined as the number of offspring reaching sexual maturity and nothing else. In social animals it gets a little complicated because many members may not actively engaged in sex. It is further complicated by kin, group and multilevel selection. For the moment however we can simply acknowledge that as a sexually reproducing species it is not surprising that humans are very interested in all aspects of sexuality.

To understand why there is so much confusion over sex we first have to set aside the myth that humans among all animals are not primarily driven by instinct. What should be obvious is hidden by culturally induced cognitive dissonance. We can call it speciescentrism. The vast majority of the brains activity does not ever become conscious. Evolution is conservative, it does waste energy on the non essential. What becomes conscious is only that which increases fitness. An animal does need to know why it is behaving it only needs to be predisposed to behave in ways that increase fitness. By historical convention those predispositions are called feelings. They are called feelings because instincts are generally but not exclusive consciously experienced after the fact as physiological changes. For example thirst is not an instinct it is the physiological expression of the instinct to acquire water when certain other physiological conditions are meet. Sex functions in a similar way. Exposure to certain stimuli and the presence of certain internal physiological states will cause other emotional states (called feelings) to rise to a semi conscious state. In other words the presumption that humans are not instinctual is driven by the misconception that if they were we would be conscious of instincts. Keep in mind that the pin head size brain of an insect is sufficient to find a mate and engage in complex copulation. Don't expect that anyone is going to find the physiological origins of sexual instincts anytime soon. We actually have very little idea how they work.

Getting back to the subject at hand the vast majority of humans will be predisposed to engage in activities that lead to reproduction. At the kin level the vast majority of humans will be predisposed to encourage fitness of relatives. At the group se!ection level the vast majority of civilizations will be predisposed to have cultural practices that increase fitness. All the hypothesises that have studied possible increases in kin fitness due to such things as the gay uncle advantage have come up empty. At the moment homosexuality appears to offer no fitness advantage and thus no advantage to the species. That may or may not be true but the point is it is unreasonable to assign a moral stigma to a sexual preference driven by instinct. That would include the predisposition to want your children to sexually reproduce. Everything else about the discussion is abstract.

I'm not saying the abstract is unimportant, it is the key to understanding the cultural ape. What I'm saying is that social justice is more about emotional manipulation to satisfy the desires of the social justice warrior than to improve the health and happiness of the human race.

wolfhnd Level 8 Apr 29, 2020

Good point.

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Gender confusion always takes a terrible toll. Most of us experience some of that as teenagers, and roughly 98% of us grow out of it. For those who don’t and fail to benefit from therapy, the result too often is suicide.

So if I had a loved one so afflicted, I would do everything in my power to get them help.

Out of curiosity, would you let your daughter wear pants, play sports, and overall not be a stereotypical girly girl?

@Tati. I don't know about most parents, but if I had a daughter, I would enforce her safety in emergencies, however I would encourage her to make her own mistakes, with the benefit of my advice, if she so chose to seek. Any notion of control beyond emergencies is unconstructive, and illusory anyway.

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