This shit writes itself. lol

@Beachslim being involuntarily celibate, as in having a hard time finding a mate, is fine. Even if it is because you want a connection and not just meaningless sex, or if your standards are too high and you are picky.

But the term / identity "incel" actually has a specific meaning. You wouldn't call yourself a "MAGA" adherent and wear the hat only because you want America to be great, but don't care about Trump. Same with being an incel. Incels fall into the "male chauvinist" category, where they believe in purity culture and that women should be subservient to men and only exist to be wives and mothers. Incels believe that they are "owed" sex by whoever they ask. They believe it is a one-way street, where women must conform to their standards and submit to them, but they don't need to do any self improvement (attitude, appearance, career, etc) to get some supermodel. The Dan Pena quite is kind of apt, as they aren't entirely "involuntary" - if they went to a sex worker, they could have sex. If they lowered their standards and chose a non-traditional or "ugly" woman, they could most likely have sex. But they have outdated notions and prop up unrealistic western beauty standards, and won't settle for anything less. And yes, they will then be violent and aggressive to women when they don't get their way. They want women to be promiscuous with them, but will call them sluts if they are promiscuous with anyone else. They want women to be sexy porn stars with them, but dress like nuns outside so that no one else can look at them.

Incel is a specific identity, and a dangerous one at that. I would even go as far as saying Islam echoes incel identity.

@Beachslim actually all that other "crap" is touted by self-proclaimed incels.

Howdy @JacksonNought,

you don't seem to realize that Islam and Christianity aren't all that different when it comes to attitudes towards women

Do you not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures... Mark 12:24

...There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

This is starkly different from the Islamic view of women.

This is an ideal of womanhood that we all have struggled to live up to for two thousand years. Just one of Christianity's ideals we all struggle with.

@timon_phocas does Christianity believe women should be in control of their own lives and bodies, including sexual decisions, wardrobe, choosing careers over motherhood, etc?

Howdy @JacksonNought,

Christianity believes all people should control their own choices. Moral choices are the at heart of the Scriptures. That being so, however, the Scriptures also lay out the consequences of choices. Good choices lead to loving relationships with God and fellow humans. Poor choices do not.

@timon_phocas please explain why centuries of Christian rule in Europe and the USA resulted in women with no rights?

@JacksonNought

Howdy again. I do not admit "centuries of Christian rule." I certainly admit centuries of rule by people who professed to believe in Christian principles. Generally speaking, that means powerful people who lived for their own ambitions and then used the cloak of Christianity as justification.

And the concept of 'women with no rights.' is nebulous at best. When nobody has a vote women's suffrage is meaningless. Conversely, Stalin's Constitution of 1936 mandated universal suffrage and absolute equality before the law. And, of course, that meant absolutely nothing in term of rights. So what we're really talking about is Western Europe and the Americas from about 1700 to the present. These areas were the most influenced by Christian teaching and (interestingly enough) this is where the whole idea of women's rights became a movement and then a reality.

@timon_phocas "rule by people who professed to believe in Christian principles"

You realize the same can be said of those exploiting Islam to gain power? Of course I am sure you'll do the tired old "yeah but Islam actually believes this, Christianity doesn't" No True Scotsman spiel. Don't waste your time.

@JacksonNought

Howdy again. I will certainly agree that powerful Muslims have treated Islamic teachings cavalierly. Just like avaristic 'Christians'.

I would challenge anyone to point out, however, where in Islamic scriptures there is an equivalent to Galatians 3:28 (There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus). And this is not the only place in Scriptures where these principles are expressed.

Christianity and Islam are not morally equivalent