oh im extremely terrified of that. i think if the premature call is overturned we are no longer discussing civil war as a hypothetical and i almost wonder if that was the mission of making that call so early and not as some suspect to just get people to admit defeat early

You got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yup and i think thats the crux of why we are where we are now. they were fed all this legitimate fear, because yeah if people told me what they were told would happen id be fearful too, but then they didnt relinquish that fear and continued to be fearful of those things even when he didnt do them. in the words of wise Master Yoda,

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering“

@Joehlert11 Love the quote....

@Lightman i think its exactly what happened to Democrats over the last four years and pushed many to the extreme left. i don't necessarily think the people are evil they were just duped into thinking that of us

lol then just be honest and say thats what its about. but “killing us and taking away our rights” please.

im right there with you but just curious if there’s anyone willing to try. every response i get is he’s going tontake away our rights and even our lives. uhm you said that 4 years ago and thats why i was willing to listen and not vote for him because you really didnt have anything to base him not doing that on, whereas Hilary i at least knew what would happen, devil you know thing (granted i didnt vote for her either). even now with covid HE didnt take lives but id argue Dems certainly did, HE didnt overreach the power of his office and take rights but Dems did. if you wanna say he divided us id say the baseless fear and blind hatred of him is to blame for that

@Joehlert11 in the history of western democracies conservative have no history of taking away peoples rights or making big changes to systems of governing. That is almost exclusively the territory of leftists- socialists. It really requires almost no explanation since more government simply has to mean less personal freedom- simple logic which seems completely lost on about half of the population.

@dirtbill i mean in 2016 i was still pretty naive in my understanding of politics, it was my 2nd presidential election, 2012 being my first and i really don't remember who i voted for or why. Im pretty sure i just voted how my parents did and even st that with no real conviction other than to say i voted for the first time. since then i havent really done much in way of voting in state or local elections but thats mostly because i was in college and not really home enough to care about local and like i said not informed enough to know what id want from state elections. even now i don't know how much id vote in local elections as unless there is a major cultural shift i don't see my vote doing any good and while yes i care about certain offices as a single guy who isnt super involved in the local goings on im not as invested in shifting things one way or another

@Joehlert11 as far as I am concerned the most important thing someone like you could do is read your history and read about the founding of America as well as how the west transitioned from sovereigns and surfs to free men and women, it was not entirely smooth but it made the lives of citizens who live under it more healthy, prosperous and free than any people in the history of mankind.

Under the current situation it is also of use to read about the other forms of governance that people have experimented with. You will hear a lot about fascism and its often conflated with crimes against humanity but in reality if wasn't necessarily the political system that resulted in mass genocide. On the other side its worth reading about soviet and chinese communism and that proved to be equally genocidal.

You are unbelievably fortunate to have been born in this place and this time. no matter the color of your skin or you social status you are better off, freer , more healthy and safer than human beings at any other time in history, unfortunately there are many who will tell you that you live in a horrible place and time and they are utterly and completely wrong, so you need to ask yourself why would they do that?

@dirtbill oh believe me thats what ive done over the past 4 years and was able to vote Trump unapologetically. i looked at the hysteria right atmfter Trump was elected and was like, i get it cry cuz you lost but the man hasnt done any of the stuff you were fearful of yet. i mean thats how i treat canpaigns and trying to sway people one way or the other. you make them either more fearful of the other guy or make them less fearful of yours to get then elected but once they are its a clean slate and lets see what happens and then go after them as they do the things you were fearful of. its why im able to not get so worked up over Biden right now. you’d be crazy if you think im not extremely terrified. i know my place if work isnt that exciting to most and the pay is shit but i like it and im currently furloughed because with all the restrictions there is limited product to put out and no one is coming for the little but we can do so we are closed again . with Biden we may not reopen if he extends all these measures and allows govenors more power to do so. on top of that with his financial plan between taxes and min wage hikes there is ni way we can survive the increase in expenses even if business returns to normal. in terrified what him running things means for exchange of ideas and religion, im afraid of our personal security with defunding police and taking away guns, im terrified of him trying to take too much power and pack the courts something people were fearful of Trump doing (taking power not packing courts). this is just some of the things but the. i remember politicians don't do everything we hope or think they will do. now some of those are really bad to me and i know he has history of doing things but i mean this is how political shifts work you get things you don't like and hey maybe he’ll implement some decent ones while he’s at it.

@Joehlert11 well you can hope that the senate remains republican and the house is razor thin either way so it will be very difficult to make wholesale changes. I think what people need to try and figure out is who is paying for all the acrimony and chaos, who will benefit from it, more government and other changes like weak borders, vague citizenship or global alignments? In reality despite his very unpleasant personality and huff and puff NY attitude he was in many ways a traditional American conservative. He was against foreign adventures since he believed in American Exceptionalism he felt it was appropriate to reject other systems of government while not wanting to overthrow them, this is the US tradition of isolationism, the US traditionally used trade and cooperation with like minded countries making it more beneficial to be with us than against us. He also did a great job of repatriating US funds parked in foreign countries and put it to work in the US, despite the Democrats stating that was not possible and naïve. His unconventional (read not very diplomatic) approach to North Korea, Iran, China and others is actually very American and very effective, America never played classical French diplomacy in the past. Modern Americans seem to want to emulate France or Spain which would be a huge mistake.

plus the corruption of the Democrats can't be over looked!