@TheMiddleWay Sorry, I missed the crucial word - I should have said you can't prove a UNIVERSAL negative. It would be impossible to prove that systemic racism never exists anywhere, just as it would be impossible to prove you never have a coin in your hand (assuming you have a hand that is capable of holding coins).

For this reason, the burden of proof is on those who claim systemic racism exists, regardless of who makes what claim.

@TheMiddleWay Right - so now you're presenting examples, which is what is required here. It is possible to show examples of things that exist. People can then have a debate as to whether that is a true example. The evidence needs to be brought by those who claim something exists rather than by those who claim it does not, as you have now done.

I personally agree that both of the examples you have provided are good evidence that systemic racism has existed towards various races or groups of races.

@TheMiddleWay @Supervixen this study was done almost 20 years ago, but I think the framework and methods are effective. It would be interesting to see the same methods used to analyze current labor market trends. In case you don't want to read the whole study, the gist is that they applied for jobs with identical resumes, one set using white sounding names, and one set using African American sounding names. No difference in qualifications or skill. The resumes with white sounding names got somewhere around 50% more call backs than those with resumes containing African American sounding names. They explored many possible explanations for this outcome, even outside the context of racism, but I think it could be a useful tool in identifying potential practices that exist so that we can be more aware of their existence and create self checks to prevent them from leading to inequality.

@TheMiddleWay I forgot the link...
[cos.gatech.edu]

@TheMiddleWay That sounds like an illuminating study as well. I have seen a few in this context that seem to be consistent in their findings, albeit not necessarily consistent in their theories of possible root causes. I don't think we have enough info to get there, but I would love to see a meta analysis looking at these indicators across the board in the healthcare, employment, social services, education sectors and get a better vision of the bigger picture. It's easy to say it doesn't exist when it's not overt and in your face and everything else is subjective. I think there is enough evidence out there that shows it does exist, we just suck at being able to recognize it and rather than going against the grain to divert the vicious cycle in a better direction, we keep doing what we've always done and calling that good enough because it's better than where we started.

@Amzungu, @TheMiddleWay I feel like those studies talk more about an individual's own biases and preferences, rather than a systemic sort of issue.
I would like to see the same sort of study cross culturally and in different countries, because it's a very normal human thing to prefer certain humans over others based on a lot of variables.
Like one will always pick oneself, for example, over another person. Or one's own family, over other groups of people in lots of circumstances.

@TheMiddleWay In that case what about the 'race' of the individuals who were making the decisions on calling back for jobs or handing out loans?

To me, the "system" is the human system of having a preference for some people over others. No one is exempt of that bias.

@TheMiddleWay I'm not going to follow you on some rabbit trail where you attempt to justify the demonization of whites.

More whites fought and campaigned to end slavery than ever participated in it. You can't say the same for those demonizing them.

@TheMiddleWay

"I'll acknowledge this crumb if you let me ignore most of your comment and shift the conversation over to demonizing whites"

Not gonna happen, moshe. I know your tricks.