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This post comes from a conversation I am having with Krunoslav. I want to talk specifically about accommodations for people with disabilities. I'm not talking about "oppression olympics," I'm talking about doing everything you can to help people be their best selves and productive members of society.

For example, in the U.S., buildings are required to have ramps, elevators, and parking spots for people with disabilities. Is that Marxism? Suppose you're born with spina bifida and can't walk. Tough luck? It's not my fault, why should I accommodate you? Is that what you would say? Or do you agree, a person in a wheelchair has rights and a civilized society will accommodate him as such?

How about other disabilities? You think people with disabilities should sit at home, or an institution, and tax money pays for their existence. But does it really have to be that way? I firmly believe most people can work if accommodated. I see people with Down Syndrome, or people who are obviously intellectually disabled, bagging groceries at the store. Don't you think most people can do something? I've done a little work with intellectually disabled adults, I don't see why they can't do a lot of jobs, as long as accommodations are made. According to one Human Resources professional society:

As with all employees, it’s important to make a good match between the person and the job ... With careful matches and usually minor accommodations in the workplace, [program coordinator Jim Runyon] continues, the businesses in his network have reported high attendance and retention as well as no increase in accident rates among employees with intellectual disabilities. ... Some of those employees are bagging groceries, sweeping floors and raking leaves. But in Runyon’s network and around the country, others with intellectual disabilities are employed as office assistants, medical technicians, textile machine tenders, furniture refinishers, sales clerks, cashiers, building maintenance workers, messengers and cooks. ... As a result of improved educational and vocational rehabilitation opportunities, many of today’s young adults with intellectual disabilities are hitting the job market better prepared and more eager than ever to work. Yet nine out of 10 adults with intellectual disabilities are unemployed, [George Bouthilet, research director at the President’s Committee for People with Intellectual Disabilities in Washington, D.C.] says, which means they represent a vast but largely untapped labor pool.
[shrm.org]

altschmerz 5 Sep 16
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0

Compassion and charity should not be compelled by legislation. It should be encouraged through culture and family values.

@altschmerz

>>"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither. The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both." Milton Friedman

>>"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

@altschmerz The danger of unions is that they tend to put a thumb on the scales in favor of employees, (at least when they get the government involved) thereby jeopardizing free enterprise and the free market. I think social pressure to bring about positive change is the way to go, which unions can have a legitimate and positive role in promoting. Training people in the art of negotiation would also be a good thing to do in the interests of helping people improve their own situation while preserving freedoms. Encouraging and supporting people to do what they can to improve their own situation is better than using legislation to force others to do it for them.

1

You provoked quite a few thoughts here. A good post. Thank you. 🙂

Naomi Level 8 Sep 17, 2020

@altschmerz I know exactly what you mean. Stick around a little longer. I like people who are open-mined enough to listen to others who hold different views from their own. It takes time to find such free thinkers, though. Lol Take care.

2

"For example, in the U.S., buildings are required to have ramps, elevators, and parking spots for people with disabilities. Is that Marxism?"

The disabled vs "victimhood mentality" often times gets lumped into the same causes. One such argument I saw online was that POC physically handicapped face greater hardships than whites with the same or similar disadvantages. Which, of course, just divides an already small base needlessly.

There are government programs that can seem more communistic in nature than others. Welfare would be a good example of this. Adding ramps and parking spots isn't in the same ball park for me. Or at least I haven't read an argument I agree with.

What it comes down to is a basic humanitarian nature many people have that drives them to actually work with those with cases of mental and physical disabilities. It's not a job for everyone, and therefore when implemented at a larger scale you'll find more cases of abuse rather than help. Which is one of the major reasons large mental health institutions fail.

Still, it is an endeavor I support as far as some of these more specific donation based charity groups work. From providing company to veterans otherwise alone on the holidays, to working with physically and mentally challenged individuals, it really is amazing some of the breakthroughs we've made over the course of time. Employment, let alone even being able to get by day to day, has been opened up thanks to both breakthroughs in technology as well as patient sponsors who work with these individuals.

1

You are grouping a very large group of people into one group.
What about mental disability... or the disability to be born to abusive parents? Or the disability to have the wrong skin colour or sexual preference? Or to be born in the wrong country or religion?
There are many disabilities other than the obvious physical ones.
It becomes very complex and there are no simple solutions.

The issue how you play off different disabilities and rewarding merit. If you stop rewarding actual merit you very quickly fall into mediocrity leading to failure of the whole system.

You need to distinguish between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome goals you are setting.

We are not all equal. However we all need a fair go at life.

Now any additional support you give to disabled people necessarily discriminates against able people... whatever your definition of disabled/able is.

It becomes a question of equality of opportunity and what you need to do to ensure we all have a fair go at being successful. That necessarily require you to discriminate against the able.

Is being black a disability? Today is seen as such by many.

Should governments reward companies for hiring disabled people? Should government give preference to disabled hires for its own staff.

Or make legislation that allow disabled to compete more fairly?

And who is to pay for all that... because it does come at a cost. If it was cheaper to hire disabled people we all would do it.
Providing disability access cost money and has to be enforced by legislation, else no one would do it.
Sad but true.

What we can look forward is that technology is reducing the need to discriminate against able people all the time and hopefully this will become easier and easier to solve in the years to come.

Hanno Level 8 Sep 16, 2020

@altschmerz
My questions are all open ended because I do not know all the answers.
I don’t expect you to have the answers either and did not expect you to answer them. Thanks anyway for your answers.

I think I am trying to say that we are all disabled to some extent, depends on how you define “normal”.

We have a real problem in some parts of the world where people are culturally disadvantaged. And we are requested to discriminate against other advantages cultures in order to help these cultures.

My question is more how you juggle “hiring the best person for the job” vs employment diversity and inclusion.
That is a tough one.

I would say that you need to hire best person, however if that best person has a disability, do what needs done to give them a fair job opportunity.

0

what are you advocating for that isn't already being done?

iThink Level 9 Sep 16, 2020

@altschmerz I'm pretty sure that's already being done...ever heard of a sheltered workshop?

@altschmerz there are other avenues for the disabled to work - do jobs other than sheltered workshops. One problem for them is the families do not want to do the work necessary to help the person who is disabled. It takes some effort and participation on the part of the families to do that and many of them either can't muster the motivation and the will to do so. Gov't is not - can NOT be the answer to every problem that exists. Gov't can NOT be all things to all people even part of the time - much less all of the time.
The sad reality is that a person who is disabled - mentally or otherwise is not the only one who suffers - his family also suffers. It is asking a lot for someone to do the work that goes with helping a family member find work or training for that matter. But it is NOT the role of Gov't to do it for them.
There are already incentive programs available for employers to hire physically and mentally challenged people. It seems there are a lot more things like that than you know. I think you are looking for a problem and a Gov't solution where none exists - or at least it is not as much of a problem as you seem to make it out to be.

@altschmerz does your buddy with autism and IDD receive services? He should qualify, and employment support and transportation should be covered there.

Re: sheltered workplaces, where I’m at, .gov recently closed them down because they were “discriminating” against people with disabilities. So a TON of people lost jobs. Another example of good intentions that in reality became a shit sandwich for many people, their families, and their care providers.

@altschmerz his situation sounds like a lot of the folks I know and work with, and I sympathize. You’re dead-on about getting competent staff, including provider agency staff as well as those at the .gov agencies (I have actually worked with a few of those that were good, but the vast majority are not). For direct service providers, it’s not the highest-paying work and there is a stigma attached to it (related to the stigma with people with disabilities, of course). For .gov employees in the field, well, they’re just typical .gov employees: lead-assed.

Not sure what the transportation scene is like where you are so I’ll take your word for it. I’m in an area with fairly shit transportation but there are individuals that do the 1hr each way to and home from work because that’s the only choice they have. Anyway, sounds like he should have a case manager who should be trying to help him sort some of this out.

@altschmerz sounds like he’s probably getting Medicaid services, so he should contact your state’s Quality Assurance department if he has concerns that he’s being jerked around. And if they’re serious concerns, he can contact the ombudsman.

3

Hello. IMO, if anyone is willing to live their life well and contribute to society despite their disabilities, providing them with a little help, i.e., easier access, training ,etc., is a small price to pay.

Naomi Level 8 Sep 16, 2020
3

I’m a big fan of small government, free markets, and private initiative. The “small government” part means limiting the size and the functions of government. But it also means driving regulations down to the most local level. Traditionally, building codes were products of local government. Same for zoning. The ADA of course is federal. It’s not a bad law per se, but I believe a better result could have been achieved by local governments. I also believe the ADA unnecessarily preempted a lot of private initiatives.

Alexander Graham Bell worked hard to develop technology to accommodate the hearing impaired. It was a lifelong obsession for him. Would he have made that effort if the government had said, “We’ll do it for you?” Would he have been satisfied by asking the government to do it for him?

@altschmerz I could not DIS-agree more with this sentiment. Gov't does NOTHING - contributes NOTHING and is only a hindrance to creativity, productivity, innovation inventiveness. To put creative genius in the hands of Gov't would be equivalent to putting a "bright 3rd grader in a classroom of "special needs" kids for the imagined "benefit of all concerned"...balderdash!
The less Gov't we have the better off we will be. Period.

@altschmerz - "gov't not Steve Jobs created the iPhone"

 do you have any idea how ridiculous this assertion is?
1

This is the conversation we'll be having as AI and automation turn more and more of us into obsolete production equipment. I have a sick idea that this is what's driving globalism, and the idea of stacking us like cord.wood into mega-cities, and the targets toward population reductions and sustainable development.

govols Level 8 Sep 16, 2020
5

Whilst working in my 5 year transition job in supermarket management back in the day I had the pleasure of looking after employees and all training. I would include training for the support staff something which was not considered at the time but we were all part of the team after all. This training was always a pleasure and I formed friendships with both my colleagues and their parents.

I was interviewing for a position on the back door which is where the deliveries come in and it can be back breaking work. I interviewed a gentleman who presented with a missing eye, a badly damaged arm and was missing four fingers on one hand. As our interview progressed I asked him if he considered himself to have a disability and he thought about it and said to me “I do have asthma”. I took him on and we became firm friends his work ethic was brilliant and his resilience far outweighed anything I could hope to achieve.

3

I work with both physically and intellectually disabled individuals. People with disabilities can and should be as integrated as they can and want to be, but within limits, as with everyone else. Those limits are going to be defined by the society they live in with regard to their cultural values, and of course the amount of funding available. Like most things it comes down to “does the shit make sense?” That is, how much accommodation/modification will be needed to do the job? Contrary to what many believe, we’re not all equal. Like with strengths and weaknesses of people without disabilities, the range of physical and intellectual disabilities is so broad that it’s damn near impossible to make sweeping laws that mandate “inclusion.”

Thanks for posting this. Interesting and often forgotten topic.

@altschmerz looks like someone already responded to the issue of incentivizing the hiring of people with disabilities👍🏻

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