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Is there a “Too Far” for a free speech site?

Is there a way to retain the original purpose here, a haven for reasoned discourse from all points on the spectrum, while opening it up to anything anyone believes?

Are all opinions equal? Are we obligated to treat all posts with equal respect?

Does the establishment of any standard immediately equate to censorship?

I don’t have answers to these questions. I’m not at all convinced there are answers. But, as Kamala Harris is so fond of saying, “I think we need to have a conversation about this.”

Edgework 8 Aug 16
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2

This is a really pertinent topic for me as facilitator/developer of this site. The comments so far on this thread suggests that the majority of the members of this site are thinking types who value the ability to express themselves without (as much) fear of being banned. As an online community, we are not free speech absolutists in that we have conversation guidelines that require civility... while allowing for some normal hotheadedness. Even with this guideline in place, Google has banned our app from their app store with no way for appeal (as in all bans)... fortunately, we didn't build this site to be app dependent.

As far as all opinions being equal, I'd put those that are based on cited facts above speculation, those that explore causes above symptoms, and those communicated with solutions above derision. At some point, perhaps we could find some way to highlight members who gain peer respect... until then, we just have "likes".

Admin Level 8 Aug 18, 2020
1

It's a good idea to separate the person from the statement. Criticise ideas rather than the person with that idea, as it can be a distraction.
As far as censorship goes, i think it should be down to the individual to self censor to what ever degree they're comfortable with.

2

There is such a thing as absolute truth but it's not absolutely what we might think it is. The danger is that we might agree the truth needs to be censored because it is offensive to 'Community Standards' or is not conducive to an unquestioned ideology. No posts are equal, but the spectrum actually is their plausibility. 'Respect' might be dependent upon whether you're Mark Twain or Christopher Hitchens in speaking on the topic of religion. But keep in mind, the dead had opinions they kept to themselves. The world might not can handle the truth, which is tragic.

6

Ideas should be out in the open. If you don’t like it, walk the fuck on..or engage and debate, whatever, but censoring it doesn’t do anyone any good. Stupid ideas need criticism for being stupid, and good ideas need criticism to make them better.

As Blackout stated, censorship is not about protecting people, it’s just about power and control. Today’s marxist censorship in the US provides a glaring example that most have seen: pedophiles are allowed to argue that they’re normal, while doctors are censored for questioning obviously questionable positions on the ‘rona and its treatment. Yea, that makes sense.

@JVIP-WTPNN agree with you

2

When we humans are not raised among fellow citizens who learn internal restraint, the Exterior restraints will have to be applied. The block button, works on a personal level. But, as we see in our Cities where the unrestrained are encourage, it takes more and more force to stop the humans without self control. It is up to us to choose the individual block button. Or some one has to be the censor! This is the road we are watching happen for our large Social networks. The centralized censorship should be the end of the line choice. With our population, now, Censorship is inevitable. It is the sign, our ideas about Liberal Democracy's have been pushed to the point of failure.

The road to censorship is about power because ultimately someone has to decide what is allowable or not. Censorship is not about protecting people, it's about controlling people. The problem is that we think censorship protects people but it blinds people from what is around us. If there are bad people that live around me, I'd much rather know than not know.

In extreme situations, censorship sedates people from reality rather than preparing them for reality. Reality is wonderful and horrible at the same time. When we pretend that life is roses and lollipops, we are preparing ourselves for failures. Humans are not fragile, we are anti-fragile. We are like our immune system, we need to be exposed to all types of good and terrible ideas so we can distinguish what is around us, otherwise we become naive skin-suits walking around waiting for our next method of sedation from a harsh world.

@BlackoutNJ We adults are not fragile. But, politeness was learned by everyone, as there is a "Time and a Place". Without that sense of civilization....we have lost everything worth having, when we are in a community. I sense not too many people knew days when polite conversation was the norm.

5

I believe there are two issues when I see people talking about free speech. We always bring up censorship but why do we want to censor? Why is it important to censor anything? I'm assuming it's to say that what is being displayed is harmful or does not represent a platform/company etc. When we censor, we are actually giving it importance and it is now highlighted with attention that it may not deserve. This feeds into the narrative of "words are dangerous" but they aren't. Words are all in how we interpret them individually...so we personally decide if words are offensive. Ultimately, unless it is a threat of action, words do not hurt us. I've said it before, I do not care if someone says something racist or offensive, even if it's directed at myself because that is their problem, not mine.

The second issue is the concept of everyone's opinion matters...when in reality they don't. My opinion only matters to myself, that's it. Now, if you choose to have my opinion matter to you, that is your choice but the idea that every person that has a keyboard and a opinion is now the arbiter of some ideological truths is absolutely silly. We all think we know everything and there are very few of us who are willing to admit when we are wrong. Even the idea of being wrong is at times subjective because what I consider wrong is based on opinion that probably can't be provable. Either way, my opinion doesn't matter unless you want it to matter. Once we realize that opinions are like assholes, then we will stop caring if an opinion is censored or not.

We could all talk about the weather. That is polite, unless you have to use cuss words, to define a windy day! The sense of proportion has been lost. In front of children, we talk one way. In a bar another. In stranger exchanges, it was thought the best way was to be polite to strangers. It is not Opinions or censorship we are talking about. It is a loss of what is really important. Having a civil exchange, as we share a space, or ....What do we call what we do now, on line? Make an impression? Strangers do not usually care what our opinion is. You are correct. If they cared, they would ask you to express it! politely.

@Machiavelliwar With politeness of the old days was accountability. Now it's tough to have politeness because of anonymity. When you can hide, you don't necessarily have to be accountable for your conduct. The things people say to you without in person interaction can be astounding, so I just don't engage in the ridiculous unproductive banter.

@BlackoutNJ The "cold shoulder", Right? We have been set up by studies, on how our minds work. However, it does not work to goad us and shock us for their numbers, once we are on to the game! These tactics only work in the beginning! You are absolutely right about accountability. There has been deliberate attempt to destroy the concept of Responsibility. It has become a philosophy. Apart of the destructive ideology. The only ones now, not behaving are young or incorrigible (use to be a word used for kids who acted up in school!!). Those who are still paid for this vandalism of our public spaces those we ignore! Never give any-one more power, then you can take away from them! My new motto, what do you think?

@Stinkybob swords are definitely a deterrent

@Machiavelliwar great Motto, I agree.

4

I am a free speech absolutist, which for me means that everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone else has a right to agree or disagree with that opinion in open debate. I loathe antisemitism and all forms of racism and bigotry - I don't treat people who post such trash with the same respect as I treat people who post reasonable and well thought out arguments. Usually I ignore or block them entirely. But I do not feel I have the right to censor anyone completely, and truthfully, I would rather have these opinions 'out there' so they can be thoroughly debunked in debate by folks who are far more articulate than I am. If Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro were to debate a goon like Richard Spencer they would show him for the fool he was. A few years back a guy named Nick Griffin, leader of the far-right BNP and genuine UK neo-nazi, was humiliated on British TV for his idiotic views. People saw him for what he was and very little was heard of him after. Education is the silver bullet for ignorance, and we can not learn anything if we silence and de-platform people we disagree with, no matter how much we may oppose their opinions. Just my opinion.

TheDarb Level 4 Aug 16, 2020

@Thaw Fair comments there. I will look into what you said, and I am the first to admit that this is not my area of expertise. I still don't believe the antidote to hateful speech is absolute censorship - but I will certainly take your comments seriously and do more research into the area. Appreciate your input.

@Thaw

I saw those debates and did not come away feeling the white supremacists had won. As I keep saying you do not want to live in a society where people are not treated as individuals. It is the same principle as it is better to let nine guilty go free than one innocent be convicted.

Here is a question for you. Which of these were Jews or Black Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.

I had no idea about any of this. Very interesting stuff.

@Thaw

Hitler was an effeminate idiot.

@Thaw

It is an argument you just don't get it.

@Thaw

Start your own threads, live in your echo chamber.

I don't agree on censoring anything on someone else's behalf. You're also correct about the silver bullet.

@Stinkybob

No I'm suggesting that like your post most of what comes from the neo Nazis, white supremacists, or however you label them is vulgar. There is a place for race "realism". That discussion however shouldn't be highlighted by vulgar generalizations.

The other issue is that the website presumably is focused on the types of discussions that those, including several Jewish intellectuals, from whom it got it's name would be interested. Coming here and trying to inject race into every conversation is at best impolite or inconsiderate. It is a bit like coming to a Buddhist forum and talking about Christianity in every thread. You may think race is the only topic to focus on but most people do not.

6

The best thing is that you/we don't have to indulge any content that comes down the pike - we just can't attack the people who say things we recognize as well, just stupid, crass, pedestrian nonsense.
My way of dealing with this kind of content is to merely block the person(s) who post such content. Thank goodness for that option!
I will say that about 3 months ago(maybe?) I noticed what seemed to be a sudden influx of users/content that was just too stupid, too extreme (especially the Jew hatred - blame the Jews for everything...) content.
Did this perceived sudden influx of nonsense coincide with or have anything to do with the overlapping of Slug and IDW? Maybe it did.
I have used my "Block" button more times in the last 2 or three months than in all previous months combined.
We do have to "tolerate" all posts at least initially because they all go into one main page where we are forced to wade through EVERY post regardless its worthiness - IMHO. Whenever I came across posts I found to be just stupid and objectionable I immediately Block that user so I won't have to deal with them further. This seems to be the only remedy to the subject of your complaint - I am on your side!
Use the Block button - it'll relieve some of your angst.

iThink Level 9 Aug 16, 2020

That doesn't address the issue of the website being deplatformed. I don't know that such a thing is likely or not but it is a consideration. Will the social justice warriors eventually come for the site even if racial content is disallowed? Again I don't know but it seems likely to me.

If you were to ask the public intellectuals that gave the website it's original name of IDW would they have an opinion? Most I think would suggest that race is a side issue best dealt with else where. The question that has to be raised is why would antisemiites come to a website where half the people it is named after are Jewish? It's like going to an English court and arguing U.S. law. I understand they are changing the name to SLUG but I wouldn't think that alters the original intent. The reason they are here is because they can't get eyeballs on their own websites. That should be their problem not the admins. That said it may be a good idea to see what they are saying and how many eyeballs they are attracting, a view count on threads would be interesting.

@wolfhnd ......if they are not getting much response as SLUG....what then? I would not mind building a wall, with a door, for entry, but only as a guest on the other platform.? Sticky wicket when just wanting some conversation.

@Machiavelliwar

They really don't bother me that much but as others have pointed out their interaction amounts to little more than trolling. Everything they attribute to minorities is equally a problem in segments of the non minority population. It's like being harangue by some strange religious cult. The opposite of the annoying social justice warrior as it turns out is a social justice warrior. They just have a different view of justice.

As you say most people are here for some conversation. Most threads however get very little conversation. People will gravitate to those threads that get participation whether or not what they have to say is topical or not. This phenomenon makes it hard to define what is trolling and what is not.

When I was growing up it was considered impolite to discuss politics or religion at social gatherings. There is a bit of that mentality at work here as well. Talking about race is generally considered to be in bad taste. It's a conversation killing topic. Those that want that conversation will naturally be huddled in a corner of the room isolated from others. Most people simply choose to ignore them.

The answer as I have suggested is for them to stop trying to be annoying or shocking by using gross generalizations. Ethnic groups are not monoliths. If they would adopt the conversational style of anthropology and sociology and more carefully define what subset of ethnicity they are addressing it would be helpful.

@wolfhnd Well said. I am hoping the mere shock for shock's sake will have about worn out its ability to draw views of any one like us. Then they can swim in their pool, and we in ours. A Wall works, with a door of course!

5

Can we have an island of reasonable discourse in an age of vituperation? Are there kinds of discourse too extreme in a site founded as a rejection of censorship? Good questions are often hard questions.

I believe attacks on Jews as a culture or a religion are repellant. Then again, I come from a background where Jews were the custodians of God's revelations and the focus of His prophecies. Other people do not. So I dispute what I see as anti-Semitic assertions, state my arguments and move on. As Henry VIII's court stated, let the winds of doctrine blow, let truth and falsehood grapple in the field.

We are not an intellectual monoculture. I appreciate this deeply. As a site founded in reaction to liberal censorship, we are generally conservative. Liberal and leftist users state their arguments openly here. This is important. I will complain if it descends into ad hominim or open obscenity.

7

A few random thoughts. First there has to be a way that rational, well-reasoned argument supplants idiocy. But on social media that doesn’t happen. Persistent idiocy seems to win the day, much like the heckler’s veto. Second, this site is private property and is not subject to the First Amendment. Tolerance for idiocy should not necessarily be conflated with respect for the constitution. And third, any effort to promote dialogue is not necessarily going to affect the outcome of that dialogue. The focus should be on asking intelligent questions. And, on social media there is such a thing as a stupid question.

5

It's up to every individual to intelligently interact with the world. If you find comments offensive you can decide to ignore it or try and wash it away with your own comments. If enough people react negatively sometimes those that are offending you will try to find a new audience.

That said in the cancel culture age website owners run the risk of being deplatformed or worse if they don't censor comments. You have to pick your battles. I was recently censored on another website for suggesting AntiFa and BLM resemble nothing more than a troop of Chimpanzees looking for Nazis and Nazis a troop of Chimpanzees looking for Jews. I was not particularly offended that my post was removed but I formally complained about being labeled a rascist and told I needed to study history. I dropped it because the moderator clearly didn't understand the evolutionary psychology I was presenting.

Every ethnicity is worthy of critique and there is nothing wrong with conspiracy theories as long as they are not presented as conspiracy facts. When I was younger the terms kikes, wops, micks, wasp, kraut, spic, limey, etc. could be heard in "polite" company. Sometimes the ethnic stereotypes were even reasonable descriptive. That said the idea that society could be more polite doesn't seem like a bad one. If critiques are made in good faith and are constructive criticism even if they are offensive over generalizations I see no problem. Unfortunately most people don't feel that way. People take their group identities too seriously. If you want to discuss group differences perhaps it would be best to use the anthropological and sociological context and statistical data. Broad sweeping terms that ignore ethnic differences within various traditional group designations should be avoided. For example specify the social economic status, political affiliation, religion, educational level, and genetics of the ethnicity you are trying to define.

wolfhnd Level 8 Aug 16, 2020
3

There should be some rules on public discourse, i.e. no virtue signaling. I learned the power of this and that of personal attack while watching "Politically Incorrect" back in the 90s. Furthermore, "Meet the Press" needs to canceled or investigated.

An invitation to "Meet the Press" is a threat, today! Not certain why a network would want to keep that ancient program alive?

7

The NPC meme struck to my core. 10 - 20 years back progressive friends would react to any bad news with: "It's the Joooooooos!"
If you hand a yappy dog a megaphone you know exactly what they will say. Every debate attack the Jews, blacks, whites, etc whatever their fixation is. After reading one comment I know the basics of every comment to come and I hate giving the yappy dog the megaphone. I hate listening to it, I hate ceding the resource to someone that rendered themselves a moron.
Mine is a visceral reaction not a legal justification. Seriously, I do not know what to do to deal with the issue. I just have the anger that a chihuahua is given a megaphone but it is within the rules.

@Thaw because it's a waste of time and breath. Ever try to talk with a chiwawa and convince it you're not a threat while it's yapping at you? They can't hear you over their noise, and even if they could, they wouldn't understand you.

@Thaw I happen to agree with @DontbeanassO. And it is not a matter of being 'shown up'. Just because a wall never quits being a wall doesn't mean we failed because we stopped beating our heads on it. There are some people whose ENTIRE capacity for discourse is locked up in a single (or few) sets of responses that you can bet your life on REGARDLESS of the topic. Their one-track mind exists in a multi-track world.

I love a good debate, but one-notes don't provide debate, they provide 'noise'....

@Thaw The "chihuahuas" in this case was in another forum. The debate at the time was whether or not to ban him(/her.) Obviously, I could just be a butt hurt loser but there was no debating just harangue.
I think my point still stands some people are not adding to the conversation just filling the space and drowning out other voices. Again, I do not know what to do about it but it exists and is a problem. Any solution is fraught with peril and we have to tread lightly.

@Thaw and my general response, one note that it is, is a race is not a monolith and a group seldom has a single plan.

@Thaw WAIT! You told me to debate and use logic to persuade but if IDENTITY defines position there is no reason. Which is it?
"Races are defined by AVERAGES and group IDENTITY entails a single set of allegiances and tendencies." or people can be swayed by facts and logic? It cannot be both.

7

Our precedent of law originating in the Constitution draws the line between speech of every kind, and speech that directly causes action that violates the rights of others. Examples are pornography, falsely yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre, and conspiracies to commit crimes.

This means free speech that causes a loss of Constitutionally protected rights - such as proposing unConstitutional legislation like Obamacare, should be among the prosecutable, however as a practical matter, it is on the slippery side of that slope down to censorship, so as a matter of erring on the side of protection of rights - the central Constitutional principle, such speech is protected.

I largely agree but ... At work I (and everyone else) avoids the jackass spewing vitriol. On a platform it becomes difficult to dodge the vitriol, "vitriol" here is a stand in for "stupid crap I do not want to hear." I KNOW what that implies please do not reiterate. Practically speaking, how do I as a user, read varied comments and points of view while avoiding a significant percentage of the jackassery (or vitriol) ?

@Penrodster. ...and that is the difference between legal protection of our rights, and common sense personal interaction, in which we have every right to set and enforce our own boundaries - not as a legal matter, but as our responsibility to protect ourselves from stupidity.

@TimTuolomne But we're into a new medium now. This is a site I go to for interesting talk to bang against my assumptions or mental filters. Yapping dog with a bullhorn is legal but destroys my purpose for coming here. Back to the question of how to deal? What is the fix for talk that does not cross the line but can ruin the general point of the exercise?

@Penrodster. If I understand your frustration correctly, it is similar to mine, as I try to decide whether to answer someone or not. I don’t know of any sure “fix.”

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