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Make lying illegal. Hard.

A1fredo 8 Aug 8
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And who will decide what is a lie.

A good Christian can claim that his god exist. Of course that is not true since gods do not exist.
However the Christian did not lie because he honestly believe that and he believes he has evidence for that.
So even though he may be wrong, he still did not lie.

Now at some point said Christian realise he is wrong, however it has financial advantage to perpetrate the lie... and now he becomes a liar.

Now how are YOU going to determine when he went from making an honest mistake to outright lying for his own benefit?

Above is just an example... however you can extrapolate that to any believe system or viewpoint... socialism vs capitalism... Gnosticism vs agnosticism... etc etc.

Then you also need to address the fact that you lie to others and especially to yourself on a daily basis.
So how are we to punish you?

Hanno Level 8 Aug 9, 2020

Dude... sigh, once again, being objectively right or wrong about stuff is not the same as telling the truth or lying. You can truthfully say something wrong if you don't know better. And I don't mean for it to occupy all of our days everyday investigating every claim from everyone. You could read more about it if you want in the other comments, I just explained this very thing...

And I do not lie to others in daily basis. You don't even believe in honest people existing. That's why we need more virtuous people promoted instead of denigrated in society. It is sad. There are a few of us who dedicate our lives to this kind of stuff. And end up in psychiatric hospitals for it... unfairly.

2

Lying will never be illegal as long as politicians and lawyers exist.

Yeah... even if they didn't, regular people are too attach to it to let it go. Too complicit.

0

I think that lying is only currently illegal in cases like perjury, giving false information on certain government documents, or defamation, but I could be wrong. There could be other instances. In my view, such laws are sufficient; we don't need any more.

I disagree. With all due respect, you think so because you are another liar and it's inconvenient. I see no other reason not to be for it

I'm open to hear any other reasons if you have one.

@A1fredo Hmm ... So you want to begin talking to me by calling me a liar? It is my understanding that ad hominem attacks are not within the guidelines of this community:

"We welcome debate and dissent but personal attacks, persistent trolling and similar abuse will not be tolerated."

Did you lie when you agreed to that guideline upon joining this community? Would you want to live in a world where I could accuse you of it and you could be fined or jailed upon such a pedantic technicality? And just how easy would it be to prove such cases? For example, you opened your comments to me on the assumption that I am a liar, no doubt because you assume that all human beings have lied at some point or other, and this is not a bad assumption, to be sure. However, most people would not call someone else a liar without actual proof of some lie. So, we are in a position in which you and I could probably both be accurately seen as liars, but you would apparently prefer a world without mercy toward such human failings, whereas I would prefer to live in a world that would be without such constant quibbling over each and every word another person says.

So, except for such necessary laws as I mentioned above, without which we could not enter into contracts, conduct business, or have a workable legal system, I think we should stay away from such legalism and leave some room for human failings. I think this is especially necessary when we find that others around us have a completely different understanding of what counts as truth in any case. Would you want people who don't believe in any notion of objective truth, people who think that they can decide what truth is based on whatever suits their own selfish purposes, deciding whether you have lied? Not me.

Oh, and I should add that I am not a fan of lying. I try not to lie. As a Christian I believe it is a sin against God, and I do my best to be truthful and to foster a truthful community everywhere I am. So, I'm not saying that we shouldn't strive to be an honest society. I'm just trying to be both realistic and gracious about it.

@A1fredo Sometime, someone might say something they believe to be true but, is in actual fact, false. This would mean that you would have to know that persons thoughts to see if it was intentional or not. That would be almost impossible to prove.

@maxmaccc Right. Excellent point.

@KeithThroop Very few "crimes" can be prosecuted if you can not prove Intent!! That is probably where this dialog is headed!!!!!

@Serg97, @KeithThroop, @maxmaccc Of course. First, calling somebody a liar is not an ad hominem. Liar means you lie a lot, that's not an insult. Especially if that's true. Besides I don't know you, that's the conclusion I reached because I see no other reason to be against it.

About the objectivity of lies. Lying is a subjective matter. If you think it's true, then you're not lying. If you are wrong about something, you're not lying. It's only lying if you are aware of what the truth is, yet still decide to utter other than the truth.

Which leads me to the legal aspect. Of course that by making it illegal to lie that wouldn't mean that all lying would stop, any less than any cheating on taxes stop because it's illegal. Just remember that people are not computers, and the legal system is not there just to serve the people who neglect their limbic systems, emotionless cold people. We need it to defend us as well. So I am not suggesting that we all go sue every depressed person when they reply "fine" to "how are you," but it would most certainly help us with the people who just keep lying to us in our faces over and over, and over, taking advantage that we are the only ones affected by deciding to trust them over and over. Noticed society has no interest in forgiveness lately? Well, that's what you get when you build a society where emotional virtues are not incentivized in any way shape or form. Want to have a lovey-dovey society? Start paying people who make you feel positive emotions. Capitalism after all, would agree that you pay value for the value you receive, and there is nothing more valuable than positive emotion. You know that you need to inject shitloads of money into "science" in order to get all your tech gadgets and stuff. Why are neglected so harshly when we propose that maybe emotionally virtuous people should get something in return as well? Doing the right thing, or doing good for others shouldn't be punished by becoming a victim. Back to lying, I am one of those tusting people who choose to trust even though when I realize they are lying. How are they to see that compassion and a chance to change exists if nobody ever extends such a chance? But the world seems to be against us. So at least having a little protection to those who abuse lying would be nice. People would know that if somebody is on to them about their lies, they could plan something and start gathering evidence to prove that they were knowledgeably lying to us. And THAT would help. In this culture, being virtuous means giving up on success. As you can see, I'm not some retarded moron from Mexico. But I am in fact extremely poor and struggling to come by food to eat. I bitch about it all the time because I can't stop thinking about it as my stomach keeps reminding me. You know why? I refuse to lie. So it's almost impossible for me to get a job. I used to be a video editor so I could work from home without having to interact with people because they would react like some drama queens if somebody replied that "how are you" question honestly. What? You don't wanna know how I'm really doing? DON'T FUCKING ASK!! Yes, I am very bitter and angry, and "hateful." Being virtuous, yet rejected and punished for it will do that to you... So... yeah...

@Serg97 Exactly, but also if you can't decide what is or isn't true regardless of intent. Consider, for example, the matter of religion. Would we have to determine which one was true, if any, in order to decide which would be legal? How could freedom of religion even be possible? I happen to think Christianity is true, but I don't want to live in a society that forces it upon others and does not allow freedom of religion. We've been down that road, and it is not a place we should desire to visit again.

@Serg97, @A1fredo Well, A1fredo, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles and your bitterness. I wish you well, and, although I am not glad to hear you are suffering, I am glad you would rather suffer for the truth than betray your own moral code and lie. That is something called integrity, and I wish more people had it. I say that as someone who has suffered similarly at times.

@A1fredo So you think I am a liar because i point out a fact in the law!!!
I spent over 25 enforcing the law, I understand the importance of proving INTENT!!!!
Do you??????????????????????????????????

You are blinded by your perspective. I said it's very very few cases where you would be able to prove it. I agree. That's not the point, and that's not an argument not to make it illegal. It would still help just like a gun in your house you will never fire. Just to prevent people being assholes to you. Get it?

@KeithThroop I appreciate it.

@KeithThroop Why would freedom of religion be affected? It has nothing to do with lying. If you choose to believe in something, you choose to believe in something. If you believe so, then it's not a lie and you can say all you want about it as long as you believe it's true.

@Serg97, @KeithThroop Being objectively right or wrong, has nothing to do with telling the truth or lying... People need to consider that not everything has to be objectively measured. There are lots of stuff you can not measure from people, get over it. Maybe we could start trusting each other instead of obsessing with trying to prove things empirically? That's what I would say..

@A1fredo I'm out. We are at an impasse, I think. I've no problem letting you have the last word.

@KeithThroop I wanted to award you the last word as a symbol of me not trying to get the last word at all either... but not replying would be rude... Maybe say something else and I won't reply? lol I think this last word thing is silly, I prefer talking things out, but I respect your desition whether to engage or not.

@A1fredo It would be nice, but unconstitutional and unenforceable, therefore useless!!!

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