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Should people call themselves "trans women" while presenting completely male / as a man?

ariellescarcella 7 Sep 23
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16

My good will and patience is gone after the death threats to JK Rowling. It should have been when I received my first rape threat for saying "I'm not using cis". I think I was just socialized to be nice. At this point if you don't have a vagina (and this can be one surgically created) I'm not using "woman" and I will never refer to myself as cis again. Over 500k girls in the US have been taken overseas for FGM. One in six of us have faced sexual assault by a man. We are not privileged, cis or otherwise, and I am no longer conceding my language charity.

That's not a trans anything. That's a dude.

10

The aim of postmodern deconstructionists is to render language meaningless. Stripping the terms “male” and “female” of meaning has been major victory for them.

Sex reassignment surgery has been around for more than half a century and most people aren’t even interested. In addition, Judith Butler is old news, and no one really cares if a woman likes power tools or a man gets off on eye liner.

What’s happening today is different. Woke progressives want individuals with penises to have a legal right of access to rape shelters meant to protect individuals with vaginas. Or a person with a penis to have a right to be housed in institutions meant for people with vaginas. The push toward a non-binary world is a threat to all people with vaginas, the people formerly known as “women”.

As the pictures above so effectively illustrate, the whole charade is just laughable. Someday, historians will look back and ask what we were all smoking.

GeeMac Level 8 Sep 24, 2020

The problem of using sex reassignment surgery as a qualifier is that it can be classist. Not everyone who is trans can afford HRT or surgery. Does that mean Caitlyn Jenner gets to identify how she wants because she is a multi-multi-millionaire, but a trans woman who can barely afford to pay rent must live a lie? If we strictly base it on genitals, does that mean Buck Angel is still a woman, and should go into women's bathrooms and be allowed in rape shelters? Does that mean Blaire White is still a man, and should go into men's bathrooms?

@JacksonNought who said anything about using surgery as a qualifier. I love when you Cathy Newman me.
😂😂😂

9

(For context I am FtM and present entirely male)

The whole culture of trying to force people to see you as you see you contrary to how you present is just bizarre.
When you transition you are asking something of those when prompt them to use your pronouns (especially whilst you're at the beginning of your transition) and use your new name. You have to be understanding in that pronouns aren't REALLY a conscious choice day to day, more of a snap decision we subconsciously make when we speak of people. In order for people to make that snap decision and use your preferred, you need to at the minimum ATTEMPT to fit within that genders societal expectations. Not everyone is going to 'pass', that is understandable, but at least presenting as female is a CLEAR social prompt!

They can present how they want and do what they want, but when people start trying to steam roll over social norms with entitlement and expectation it does more damage to trans people that just want to live quietly.

9

It's their right to call themselves whatever they want.
I only have a problem when they demand I do or think the same as them.

7

No. Trans suggests motion from one place/status to another. Someone that just offers some STATEMENT of such isn't.

Now, I know that some people in less public places acknowledge what they can NOT in public, so I have no issues with them and their statement of being trans - but to 'present' as such in public and NOT in a way that indicates some movement towards 'the other', is appropriation in the worst sense of the word.

4

Seriously though, on dating apps I've tried in good faith to believe these people are beginning to transition 🤷♀️ and kept swiping. But I am seeing it more often.

I am a lesbian but I would definitely not date a man.

@Atitaya Yeah. Same. Trans men too.

@Atitaya Isn't that almost the functional definition of a lesbian? I would not expect you to be interested in someone who looks like me.

Titania McGrath is a parody account. It's funny because it's absurd.

I’m so confused and I haven’t eaten breakfast today

@Kitkat99 I was trying to be funny with Titania's tweet. Think ppl didn't get it 🤷♀️ She's a parody account. Hope you got some noms

@Kitkat99 Eh, this interface sexes the emojis. Weird. I'm not doing that on purpose

@alleycatbrawl It’s a satire account! Thank goodness! You never know these days with what crazy people say

I was born a woman and I’m a lesbian who would never date a man so I seriously don’t want to be sharing my dating sites with trans people. Other than that I’m happy for them to live as they like but calling yourself a woman will not make me feel the need to call you that but I accept that’s your reality

It’s not difficult Tatiana it’s called s mental health problem

4

No since they are not women at all and not meaning all transwomen aren't women, plenty are but they are actually trans, fucks like this are not and using this to try to do the typical male conquest of unobtainable women

3

No, does not make sense at all.

Hope34 Level 1 Sep 24, 2020
3

On the one hand:
It's we must respect their right to call themselves women then they must respect our right to call them men.

On the other hand:
If I ask that you call me Richard but you insist on calling me Dick, then the dick is not I but you. 😉


As someone that is named Richard (Ricardo), I tend to lean with the latter viewpoint. Whatever you want me to call you, I'll call you... doesn't mean that in calling you that I accept that label or any truth implicit or explicit within that label... I accept that I may always be Dick to you but you respect me by not calling me Dick but Richard.

I think common courtesy and respect demands that we put our own pre-conceptions aside such that if you think that all Richards are Dicks, that you respect when a Richard doesn't want to be Dick.

I think the desire to be right ("you are Dick, not Richard!!! Why can't you accept that!?!?!" ) all too often overwhelms our desire to be respectful and congenial ("I've always known Richards as Dick but if you want me to call you Richard, I'll call you Richard)

3

Let me pretext my answer by stating that I abide by the world health organization, American medical association, an American psychological association's definition of sex and gender. That being that sex is biological, binary, and uses the male and female designation while gender is societal, non-binary, and uses the man, woman, masculine, feminine, among other designations.

With that in mind, two comments about your post:

  1. a trans woman is about behavior and societal expectation. These individuals wish to be seen as women by society insofar far as embracing the feminine and adopting any mores typically associated with the feminine. Looks are not a determining factor in this given that looks are largely determined by biology and thus falls under the moniker of sex, not gender. To deny these male individuals their womanhood would be to deny any female their womanhood just because they don't look like what society expects females to look like.

  2. Because I abide by the above definition I would argue that conflating male and man as you have when you wrote "man/male" serves to conflate the issue given that man is gender and male is sex and they are not equivalent even if they are historically interrelated. Evidence of the problems with this conflation is that, "presenting male" is not something we choose to present or not... Is strictly biological and out of our control. Thus if the individuals in these pictures were born male, they will always "present male" biologically regardless but they have a choice as to whether they project themselves as a man or a woman socially.

Well said.

Well stated...even if I disagree!

The WHO is more of a political organization than an actual health organization. I will give you real life examples that should alarm everyone.

FGM effects more of the world's population than COVID 19. It is the WHO who told us that we cannot call female genital mutilation what it is anymore. We had to change all of our materials to say "female genital cutting". These "teachers" remove labias along with the clitoris, some have thorns sewn in into the girl's wounds, others have the vagina completed sewed shut to be cut open upon marriage. There is no anesthesia or painkillers...But hey--we don't want to hurt people's feelings so let's not judge this practice with a word like "mutilation".

There is no medical reason for "female circumcision" aka female genital mutilation and "hurt feelings" do not replace the clitoris or vaginas. When you don't make this a public health crisis despite a million girls a year now experiencing this--more than COVID you're not doing your job.

Our own health organizations are no better. They are just as political and are supported by lawmakers who are also not physicians, they just want reelection.

When you allow soft science or behavioral studies to overrule hard sciences like evolutionary biology, physiology, and any contradictory study you also are not doing your job.

Lisa Littman was considered a respected academic at BRANDEIS of all places but she was demonized for saying that there is a social element to the explosion of transgender identification. She connected suicidal ideation, depression, and similar use of particular social sites to those teens who now identify as trans (compared to adults).

There is real dysphoria and anxiety disorder in some people but when your gender dysphoria rates jump from 2% to 15% or even 20% in 5 years, when purveyors of Tumblr have rates 60% that is a compelling reason to rethink some of how we are handling this. When self-diagnosis is legal and Planned Parenthood applies abortion's informed consent waiver laws to deliver hormone therapy without ANY therapist's or physicians note that is malpractice.

This process is not scientific, it is political.

@ThomasinaPaine

When you allow soft science or behavioral studies to overrule hard sciences like evolutionary biology, physiology, and any contradictory study you also are not doing your job.

In point of fact, it is not overruling because nothing has changed about how we view sex. Evolutionary biology and physiology still have a place under the umbrella of sex. It's merely how we view gender, our behavior, that is clarified by this dichotomy.

In fact, this is nothing more than applying the notion of "nature vs. nurture": sex is nature; gender is nurture.

If we are to believe that pushing a biology v. society dichotomy is political, then we have to believe that all nature v. nurture dichotomy is political. I don't believe a convincing case for this can be made at all.

@ThomasinaPaine

It is the WHO who told us that we cannot call female genital mutilation what it is anymore

This is a digression but one I feel important to address.
What you say is patently false.
Here is what WHO has to say about FGM; yes, they call it FGM

The practice has no health benefits for girls and women.
FGM is a violation of the human rights of girls and women.
WHO is opposed to all forms of FGM, and is opposed to health care providers performing FGM (medicalization of FGM).

[who.int]
.

@TheMiddleWay Forty years ago science was that gender was a construct and sex immutable. Now Gender is NOT a construct, it's hardwired behavior, et al.

What will it be in 10 years? What do you think Chinese scientists think about gender and sex? How about Nigerian scientists? Is "gender" now no longer sexually aligned but there are firm fixed criteria that can place you? Do they have a spectrum? Will these "facts" remain 10 years from now?

Better yet--what is the scientific reason for a gendered "woman" to be able to utilize those sex-based protections (and funds) set aside for biological women?

What scientific reason is there for bearded woman with a penis and chest hair to change in a locker room with women that have breasts and a vagina?

These labels do not exist just so you can post them on your social profiles. They are used to gain access to opposite sex spaces and to obtain grants, funds, and set asides, as well.

@TheMiddleWay I'm not talking about the website. I said our materials. I worked in Egypt and Ethiopia during the aughts and the change came at great program cost. If you want to also pick on other organizations, USAID removed our ability to hand out condoms during this time, as well.

These organizations are whimsical and shift with political temperament. Having worked collaboratively with them I stand by what I said.

@ThomasinaPaine

Now Gender is NOT a construct, it's hardwired behavior,

It is not hardwired. It's nurture. It's learned. It's software

What scientific reason is there for bearded woman with a penis and chest hair to change in a locker room with women that have breasts and a vagina?

There is no scientific reason as this is not a scientific question. Co-Ed locker rooms have existed around the world for a long time. It's hard to argue that the Dutch, German, Austiran, etc co-ed saunas, for example, are used to "gain access to opposite sex spaces and to obtain grants, funds, and set asides,"

Forty years ago science was that gender was a construct and sex immutable. Now Gender is NOT a construct, it's hardwired behavior, et al. What will it be in 10 years?

I've no idea but science changes, it evolves. And we either change and evolve with it or get left behind like anti-vaxxers or flat-earthers or creationists have. I find nature v. nurture to be a useful paradigm in understanding humans and its application to sex and gender a natural extension of it.

Having worked collaboratively with them I stand by what I said.

And I value your perspective though as a health practitioner myself, I disagree with it.

@TheMiddleWay

  1. So if gender is learned then it stands to reason that it can also be unlearned, avoiding medical and surgical therapies that are most often tied with some adverse events and even serious adverse events.

  2. So if there is no scientific reason that using a women's space is necessary to said bearded man then there must be a social reason and that is were democracy and locality should have control over sex-segregated spaces. While Co-Ed spaces exist in parts of the world (its excessive to say all over the world because that implies that this is far more prevalent) they are usually not spaces where nudity occurs.

  3. Science is a methodology not a result, although it provides for -scientific- results. How that methodology is applied or denied has a profound effect upon whether the outcome is evidence based, faith-based, or politically based. When you deny funding, remove and/or suppress results then what you are left with is skewed results and unscientific as it denies the type of rigor applied to individual research studies where statistics are concerned. If you have participated in scientific research then (unless it is politicized) your advisers will want a sizable study population to make those statistics valuable. I have reviewed multiple PUBLISHED papers by gender theorists who used questionnaires from a population of only twenty people. That's ridiculous.

To clarify my position: if the only gender research funded is that which appeals to prevalent social activism then you return "science" to the type of faith-based process that stifled Galileo.

RJ Reynolds Tobacco company funded multiple studies based off of flawed protocols and skewed data. Their results may support the lack of harm that smoking results in but only because their study populations, statistics, and queries were drafted to support the outcome they wanted.

  1. Your comment about flat earthers is one I often apply to transactivism. You are not a woman because you dress like one, because you embrace a female gender, or because you subjectively feel as though you believe a woman feels. You will not experience as a healthy male subject the same physical realities as a healthy female subject. A twenty year old woman without a period is someone who is either pregnant or experiencing a health issue that needs evaluation by a medical professional. A transwoman without a period is experiencing nothing out of the ordinary. That is scientific reality.

The above trans women with beards are the flat earthers of the progressive cult. Reality is what they choose it to be despite all medical realities of their biology.

You can certainly raise gender studies and that would be well and good if gender wasn't also being tied by those same people TO sex so that they can share sex segregated spaces with the opposite sex.

I'm off so I may not respond until tomorrow.

@ThomasinaPaine

  1. Yes. This is where psychologists come into play. However, continuing with the computer analogy, sometimes the software becomes so embedded in the system that it is difficult to change or replace. Sometimes, one needs to replace the hardware for the computer to run more efficiently, for example replacing a floppy disk with a USB slot. so it can absolutely be learned and unlearned. This is why teenagers play around with gender roles as a means of discovery, putting dresses on and taking them off, putting jeans on and taking them off, and finding how much of the masculine and how much of the feminine they want to embrace.

  2. I would do a little more research on this topic. You'll find that nude coed sonnets and facilities are much more common in Europe than they are in the USA. It is not uncommon for a sauna to have many men and women walking around noon. As it turns out, Europeans are a lot less prudish about their bodies than we are.

  3. I am 100% percent in agreement about the skepticism towards soft sciences. There are tons of studies that used poor methodology including small sample size, a lack of proper cross-sectional and longitudinal populations, and more. Add to this the replication crisis and it stands to reason that one might be skeptical, hesitant, or even dismissive of gender studies. However, gender studies do not determine what is right and wrong in society. Science has no say in how we treat each other, how we label each other, and how we wish to project and refer to ourselves. Gender studies can look at populations and take a sampling of what we think and who we are and what we mean by masculine or feminine or other designations. They cannot scientifically prove that one is better than the other nor it can scientifically determine that if you were born and look this way that you must act this way and project this way. in this regard, gender studies is a retrospective science not a prospective science. Can only tell us where we've been and where we are, but it cannot, nor should, tell us where we go and where we should be

  4. from my perspective, it is absolutely the case that if you act like a woman, look like woman, and embrace a woman's role than you will experience life exactly as another woman would. You will not experience it as a female however. That much is true. A trans woman will never get pregnant and thus will never truly empathize with a female being pregnant. But there are many females who cannot get pregnant, or don't want to, and in that sense of their womanhood and that of the trans-woman will have much similarity and empathy. Another example that comes to mind is the notion that a butch lesbian embraces the masculine so much2 perhaps being mistaken for a man. Similarly, a 20 gay embraces the family so much as to be mistaken for a woman. A butch lesbian may or may not wish to be embraced as a man and a twink gay may or may not wish to be embraced as a woman... But that is their choice and their sexual equipment and their sexual disposition should not pigeonhole them into a certain behavior. Otherwise, every lesbian would have to act like a woman... and they don't... And every game would have to act like a man... and they don't.


If I may, I like to present you an example of how I use this distinction between sex and gender in my profession of radiation oncology.
I have treated trans women and transmen many times but I'll stick to transwomen for my example.
In this case when they come into our clinic and they refer to themselves as a woman, do I treat them SOCIALLY as a woman.
Absolutely.
I will say ma'am instead of sir. I will open the door for them and let them go to the door first as I am want to do with other women. I will default to a hug instead of a hand shake. When they refer to their family members, I refer to them as mother and sister, not father or brother. In short in every SOCIETAL context, I treat them as I've been taught to treat a woman.
However, when it comes to a MEDICAL context, do I treat them as a female?
Absolutely Not.
I treat them exclusively as a male. When it comes to looking for cancer in their prostate or doing the genetic testing required, they are absolutely 100% male. When it comes to giving them advice based on statistics and five-year survivals, I will use the male column not the female column.,

So while to many people it may seem odd to say "M'am, your prostate is enlarged" or "Sir, your ovarian cysts are benign", to me and others in my profession this is just another day at the clinic. There's no harm done to us for adopting the language they wish us to use for them. There's no harm done to the patient. There's no harm done to society or science. We have a clear delineation between our societal obligations and responsibilities and our medical ones. We show respect for how people wish to refer to themselves in all manner and this extends not just to gender but also titles: Sir Mme. Dr. Mrs. Mr.... names: Richard, Ricardo, Dick, Rick, Rich... form of greeting: hug, shake, nod, salutation. These are all based on societal conventions in which convention another individual chooses for themselves and that we start with respect.

At the same time, we demand absolute respect for the medical convention and therefore, although it's never happened... let me be clear, never... If a trans-woman came into a clinic demanding that we check out their ovaries, we would politely but sternly educate and then deny said request... if a transwoman came into her clinic demanding that we do genetic testing appropriate for female... again, never happened... similarly we would politely but strongly denied that request.

@TheMiddleWay

Bringing up Europe and nude codes: 1) Europeans are a world minority so pushing a Western-Centric notion of suck is a form of intellectual colonization where we attempt to press our modern mores on other parts of the world. There are more Asians (South Asia included) then any other portion of the world's population and there are no co-ed locker rooms there BUT 2) Even if Europe has a nude beach and co-ed locker rooms on every corner it doesn't mean that compelled nudity is appropriate to anyone as it removes consent.

Regarding "no harm done to society or science"--that is based on your subjective idea of what constitutes harm. I could cite papers and physician recommendations about the widespread use of hormones in teens and why medical doctors caution against it. I could also bring up the hypocrisy of not respecting the delusions of the suicidal or drug addicted in the same way.

A woman is an adult human female and while I'll respect your pronouns out of my belief in polite discourse I will not respect your penis in my locker room. Bottom line.

TBH, I don't believe that you are truly using an equal application of scientific rigors when it comes to this issue as you would another disorder or illness. There would be standards set beyond that of informed consent. No one self-diagnoses depression or generalized anxiety disorder and then receives medication. This is an anomaly in the medical world and you know it.

>>At the same time, we demand absolute respect for the medical convention and therefore, although it's never happened... let me be clear, never... If a trans-woman came into a clinic demanding that we check out their ovaries, we would politely but sternly educate and then deny said request... if a transwoman came into her clinic demanding that we do genetic testing appropriate for female... again, never happened... similarly we would politely but strongly denied that request.>>

But a 15 year old female CAN walk into Planned Parenthood and self-diagnose and under informed consent laws that were meant for unintended pregnancies they will prescribe her hormones without therapy or physician diagnosis.

I used to be just like you until I saw the damage to the lesbian community and to women's rights. I cannot pretend anymore that lesbians aren't being coerced under threat of peer expulsion for transphobia to date "women" like those in the images above. I cannot pretend that lesbians fought to not be insulted with the label "him" only to be labeled "him" in 2020 thanks to modern gender ideas pushed on them by transactivists like Riley Dennis. I won't pretend that female athletes in high school aren't losing out on scholarships to transgender women or that they have not had to deal with members of the opposite sex in their locker rooms while they change because "self-id". Your "no harm" is very harmful to some of us.

Look, there are plenty others you can convert to this faith based medical practice. It won't be me. We've said what we'll say and I think we should withdraw to our separate corners.

@ThomasinaPaine

  1. Europeans are a world minority so pushing a Western-Centric notion of suck is a form of intellectual colonization where we attempt to press our modern mores on other parts of the world.

I don't know what makes prudishness about our bodies more modern nor why being a minority dismisses their practice

I could cite papers and physician recommendations about the widespread use of hormones in teens and why medical doctors caution against it.

Yes, we caution against it. Hence, when practiced correctly, there is no problem. As I stated in my example, the use of a feminine pronouns in no way affects my medical treatment of a male patient

A woman is an adult human female and while I'll respect your pronouns out of my belief in polite discourse I will not respect your penis in my locker room. Bottom line.

Nor should you. If people aren't comfortable with their body, or those of others, they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to their body or those of others. OTOH, if everyone in the locker room is comfortable with a penis among vaginas or vice versa, then there is no problem in allowing that as well.

TBH, I don't believe that you are truly using an equal application of scientific rigors when it comes to this issue as you would another disorder or illness.

That's because you view the use of a feminine pronoun in a male as a disorder; neither I nor other health professionals do. Gender dysmorphia is a lot more than simply a male acting female or vice versa. There has to be, at the most basic, a negative effect of this dysmorphia in the persons life so as to affect their personal and social life. A transgender is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for it to be a disorder as per the DSM.

But a 15 year old female CAN walk into Planned Parenthood and self-diagnose and under informed consent laws that were meant for unintended pregnancies they will prescribe her hormones without therapy or physician diagnosis.

My understanding is that PP has an 18 or over policy on hormones. If that is being violated, it should be seen a violation of practice, not as a standard practice. I am whole-heartedly against the use of hormones or any other surgical intervention, on anyone under the age of 18; on this we agree.

I cannot pretend anymore that lesbians aren't being coerced under threat of peer expulsion for transphobia to date "women" like those in the images above.

I'd have to research this more on my end given that it's often the case that a vocal minority tends to give the impression of a majority consensus. But I agree that one should not be forced to date anyone they don't want to date for any reason. As far as I'm concerned, I'm free to date, and not date, anyone I want. I don't find black women attractive as a rule. I deny that is racist. I find white women attractive as a rule. I deny that is white privilege.

I'm curious if this attitude has voice in the hetero community. By this I mean if there is any vocal minority (or majority!) saying that I'm transphobic if I, as a hetero, don't date transwomen. Because I won't. I'm into tacos, not hot dogs... and no body can tell me I'm wrong for loving tacos!!! They are delicious!!!

I won't pretend that female athletes in high school aren't losing out on scholarships to transgender women or that they have not had to deal with members of the opposite sex in their locker rooms while they change because "self-id".

I also agree with this. A transwoman should not compete against females. Yet, in both cases above, I blame the failure to recognize biology v. society for this. If we recognized and accepted more universally that transwomen were male, then there would be no question about their not competing against other females. But if we continue what I consider that archaic designation of transwomen as women (or not women), then we only serve to muddle the issue such that those that think they are women feel ok that they would compete against other women when , physicially is biology and not women but female and thus, males should not compete against female and expect the competition to be biologically fair.

@ThomasinaPaine

Look, there are plenty others you can convert to this faith based medical practice. It won't be me. We've said what we'll say and I think we should withdraw to our separate corners.

I'm not trying to convert you. I'm merely expressing my point of view to you and others that read this thread. Departing a conversation pacifically and amiable is noble but please don't think that we have to stop talking simply because you are not convinced.

But if you do want to stop talking for any reason, I respect that choice and wish you well until our next interaction.

2

If the only requirement to be a woman is to "identify as a woman", then everyone could potentially be a woman. The word loses all its meaning. They can call themselves whatever they want, but it is very disrespectful to both biological women and actual transsexuals.

What makes an "actual transexual", actual?

@TheMiddleWay Transition, socially and physically and as far as I am concerned, planned surgical intervention. I'm a believer that once transition is complete, you are not 'transsexual' any longer, but a congruent man/woman.

2

No.

Atitaya Level 5 Sep 23, 2020
1

Not a fucking chance in Hell. I mean you're free to do whatever you want, just don't expect us to 100% follow along with your train of thought.

Don't get me wrong I have a Navy buddy of mine who made the transition (only recently found out about it) and I absolutely respect her wishes and refer to her as such..........but she DID do the whole shbang.

That right there above?

Um, yeah no........sorry but nooooooooooo.

F0XF1R3 Level 6 Oct 29, 2020
1

Trans people. Do everything in their power to live their truth. I don’t believe this person is doing that. It’s takes away from the struggles of people that are trans and almost seems like a ploy that if you seem less of a threat because you claim your trans. I don’t know what point in the process the person pictured considers them selves as trans.

1

Absolutely not. 🤡🌎

Riles Level 1 Sep 24, 2020
1

I don't think they should because it is unfair on society to visually present yourself as male and then be offended when people assume that you are male. Until we invent a device that can tell us when to assume and when not to assume a person's gender based on their looks, all persons should make an effort to accurately express their gender so as not to confuse others.

gHAB87 Level 5 Sep 24, 2020

Just speaking anecdotally, but any trans people I have accidentally mis-gendered, who presented as a gender they didn't identify, have been super cool about it. As long as you aren't being malicious and intentionally mis-gendering them, they are accepting that you may not have known or it is an honest slip up.

MiddleWay already brought this up, but you can be a woman, born a woman, identify a woman, even be heterosexual, yet still have a stereotypically masculine appearance. As I already said in this thread, I've know women with facial hair. So of course you could make a mistake and refer to them as a man, and you would also be incorrect. Honest mistakes are natural, and when given the correct information, you can make an effort to be respectful. That is my take.

1

Who am I to question someone's gender identity? If they want to identify as trans women, that is their right. As Middle Way already stated, it doesn't matter that they present as masculine, as some cis women present as masculine, and that doesn't make them any less women. I know women with facial hair who were born women, identify as women, and are heterosexual.

The pics you specifically posted look like they are from a dating app. Would you not want to know how someone identifies while deciding if you want to date them? And what if they just present as masculine currently, but have plans to go through HRT or surgery to present as more feminine later on... would you not want to know that before committing to a relationship?

I will say, 9 times out of 10, even if these people identify as trans women, since they present as masculine they will still go into the men's bathroom, in case you were wondering.

You are you. The right to question is as much your right as it is their right to say they're a polar bear fursona or a woman. You're a satanist, right? Right. You established that already.

You would question the existence of Jesus to a Christian or his divinity even if it hurt their feelings because you do not have confirmation of that god's existence. You are being true to yourself by questioning it just as they are being true to themselves to verbally establish it.

You are entitled to your own reality. You are not entitled to force other people into it.

@ThomasinaPaine to the individuals in the pictures, their reality is that they are trans women. They aren't forcing people to accept their reality by posting their identity on a dating app. You don't know their personal lives, and as I said before, by presenting as masculine they most likely aren't trying to go into women's bathrooms or domestic violence shelters, so you don't know if they are trying to "force their reality" on people in daily life. If you don't want to be a part of their reality, you do not have to date them - and I am sure they would be happy for you to ignore them and move on. If someone was interested in them, and accepted their reality, they would be happy together and hurt no one. So there is literally no harm in posting their identity on a dating app. Arielle is the one in violation here, posting personal profiles of people for her audience to comment on / potentially ridicule. I am not sure what app that is, but they might have TOS that say you cannot publicly share people's profiles.

On another point, how far can we push this reality thing? Some people's reality is that women should be barefoot and pregnant at home, and shouldn't vote or have careers. What if you have a job, and a man with that "reality" becomes your new boss - due to their reality, they fire you. Should we remove the EEOA because your are forcing your reality on him by working? Where do we start to draw the line?

@JacksonNought 1) You assume their reality is that they are transwomen and not activists 2) Even if that is their reality it is not my reality and you are suggesting that I ignore my reality so someone else can gain access to spaces that were designed for women's safety

Regarding "how far we push this reality" and then bring up ideology that is 1) opinion not facts and 2) not even close to being mainstream anymore in western nations as if this is some sort of logical comparison and/or analogy. I don't know what past decade the modern left lives in but we live in the one where women like Magdalen Berns and JK Rowling stating biological facts while espousing classical liberalism (fuck who you want, dress how you want, identify how you want but don't try to get people fired who don't agree) are threatened with rape, brutality, arson, and death. THAT is the modern witch hunt and its not coming from religious people in 2020 US and UK. It's coming from kids wearing black masks and hang out on Tumblr.

I know you guys WANT to still live in the 90s when you can praise Satan and listen to Manson to get that "fight the machine" anti-establishment high but the reality is you won. You are the establishment now so keep it moving cuz we biological women have a witch hunt going on against us and it aint coming from the 700 Club but Woke Twitter.

Reality is DNA, physiology, and hard medical facts. Intersex people have specific health concerns that do not exist in males or females. Females have specific health concerns that do not exist in intersex or male people. Males have specific health concerns that do not exist in intersex or females. That is irrefutable. You don't need to push any reality to determine these as the research science on this voluminous.

Transpersons have specifically mental health concerns that do not exist in intersex, male, or female persons and are unique and relative to that person so much so that they will use a generic "gender fluid" label to describe individual traits, concerns, etc.

Women weren't and aren't discriminated against because we like dolls or lipstick. We are the reproductive class of human and our subjugation has been tied to that throughout history. A transman in Afghanistan will still have to wear a burqa because he has a womb and vagina and a transwoman there won't have to wear a burqa and still will be eligible to vote. THAT is reality.

@ThomasinaPaine you seem to be the one assuming that they are just activists, and not actually identifying as trans women. Once more, where is the harm in having their own reality on a dating app. This is the conversation at hand, the one Arielle is presenting while violating the privacy of these two individuals. And as I said before, by presenting as masculine they are 99% most likely to not try and go into women's spaces. Trans people aren't trying to get special privileges, they are trying to not get fired, kicked out of their homes, or murdered because of who they are. That is a myth that yes, the Christian right perpetuates, trying to make it seem as if big burly men with beards are trying to go watch your wife or daughter pee. Would you want Buck Angel to go into the girls bathroom since he has a vagina? Should Blaire White go into the men's room because she has a penis (she actually was kicked out of a restaurant once for going in the men's room to test this)? We've actually seen cases where "protectors" have assaulted biological women trying to go into female bathrooms because they didn't think they looked "feminine" enough, and accused them of being trans.

If you don't think there are people who still have the whole "women must submit to men" and "barefoot / pregnant" worldview, you aren't paying attention. And of course you just skip over the question entirely. You also seem to want to label your "opinion" as fact, while everything else is mere opinion. There is actually a lot of factual scientific data stating that 1 - there are more than two sexes based on chromosome variations, and 2 - gender is a social construct which is fluid and separate from biological sex. This is just fact. You don't get to force your reality on someone else just because your opinion is different.

I am not sure why you feel the need to make a bigoted religious attack against me. To equate my religion as just being an edgy Manson kid is just ignorant and offensive. Also, you think Satanists won? Is that why the President and his administration is supporting conspiracy theories about Democrats worshipping Satan and eating children? Is that why the Satanic Panic is still going on today, and people are still in jail from the 80's and 90's after being falsely accused of Satanic Ritual Abuse? If anyone is still winning, it is Conservative Christian theocrats.

I also have no idea why you brought up Afghanistan? Are you saying we should be following their example?

1

Should they the two people pictured call themselves trans women without any effort to appear as women ?, My question is would anyone meeting them for the first time think that they where women , I don't think so, but they can call themselves whatever they like just don't mess with me.

1

Yes, if it will give a false impression not to be clear about the situation.

brentan Level 5 Sep 23, 2020
0

Only if they're from TRANSylvania 😁

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You could call yourself a space kitten that doesn't mean that everyone else has should be forced to lie to fit your delusion.

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Are you trying to see how gullible we are? 🙂
HELL NO. They are as male as I am.

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I think one of the most telling signs here of all this insanity is that “trans women” or those masking as trans women are the ones begging to be in women spaces, I don’t see trans men up in arms about this stuff because I guess they too would still rather hang in lesbian spaces. Point here is that women’s spaces & rights are the ones being imposed upon by men as usual. It’s beautiful to be a woman and as a lesbian these photos are not what I’m looking for by any stretch of the imagination. Seems like incels & some true mental health.

Level 1 Sep 24, 2020
0

No no no no no no no no no no no no no noooooooooooo

0

No not people like that I’m a trans women and I hate facial hair it makes me cry and makes me have mega dyphoria if a trans women has facial hair like that and Is okay with it no no no

Level 1 Sep 24, 2020
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Posted by Caseyxsharp2I don't know what happened to the comments that I was making before on my other post.

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