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Hey! I’m so happy to finally join the group! I’ve followed Arielle for so many many years (way back when I was a wee young lesbian)!
My questions is, in BLM video it was mentioned that trans identity and Feminism cannot co exists by their definition. Can you elaborate on that a little more? I don’t quite understand. One is an identity and one is a belief type? I’m not up on all the woke language πŸ˜‚

KelpoftheSea 2 July 9
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1

haha its because feminism at its core is about being female and trans rights suggest there is no such thing as bio sex anymore. everything is a construct.

Transman here. Many of us believe the trans rights activists are on a runaway train to crazytown. The definition of trans has been changed from it's original intent and definition to become this insane umbrella term that attempts to erase traditional lesbian, gay, and transgender people.

I was recently told I was transphobic when I said it was perfectly ok for someone into women to not want to date a transwoman with a penis.

According to the p.c. inclusive indoctrination speech of the trans rights mouthpiece of the support group I used to help with, reducing a trans woman to her genitalia is refusing to acknowledge her as a "real woman" and therefore "prejudiced and exclusionary."

That is just nuts. It just means a person doesn't like dick.

I thought a mob was going to come to my door toting pitch forks and demand to have my trans card back.

I'm a transgender male. To me trans rights has and will always be the right to live my life as who I am and want to be, to do what I want with my body, and be treated fairly as a human being.

Demanding someone date you even if your genitalia does not match their sexual preference just because you identify as the gender they like is wrong on so many levels. That's not trans rights. That's erasure of women.

3

I grew up with a second wave feminist . I was always taught that feminism through out it's history was about fighting female oppression. It isn't to exclude trans women or trans people it is about having a focus on issues that impact females. For decades woman was defined as an adult human female... when the definition of woman changed or how people perceived the definition of woman it did not magically stop female oppression, in some ways it made things worse... women can not talk about their bodies, discuss things like womens sports, or they can't talk about what the experience within society because they are female.

The fact that there is a tool like "TERF" whose sole purpose these days is to silence women and marginalize them... it might make feminism and TRA be incompatible. It gets complicated as a gay man who feels like same attracted people like myself have been booted out... I see that happening with women.

2

This is one of the best discussions I have seen on SLUG. I take my hat off to you all.

agreed

2

I think there's a difference between trans identity and trans ideology.

Trans identity is a personal thing to each individual I suppose. There are persons out there who identify as such, but don't really buy into the modern ideology of it. I think they go unnoticed because they live their life as regular people, and are drowned out by masses of the "other" kind.

However, the "group-think" of current trans ideology starts with the assumption that their identity (and the self-worth they connect to that) hinges on the acknowledgment of others, how they are seen by them. That somehow your genitals and thought-processes/behavior must be in cahoots with each other.

To them, a man cannot be "feminine", such behavior would just mean they're trans but have internalized transphobia. A woman cannot be "masculine", such behavior would just mean they're trans but have internalized transphobia. People with innies (must) act like this, and people with outties (must) act like that.

They miss the option of not caring what genitals you have, or how your behaviors is perceived in sense of feminine v masculine, but rather going ahead with being who you are and letting life happen. Finding out who will befriend you, date you, love you - just the way you are. And realizing "feminine" and "masculine" is still playing out the exact scenario that feeds into their unhappiness - that there is supposedly some inherent difference between male and female behavior, that there is a right and a wrong way to be a woman or to be a man.

In context of MtF trans ideology, which is arguably the biggest group and greatest driving factor, they prove their "womanliness" by largely performing the stereotypes that many females are trying to escape yet they long for, and how "womanly" they are relates directly by how well their performance is received, how "passing" they are. When the average female isn't even found to be "passing" to many modern beauty standards, anyway.

Because they feel that their identity stands and falls with external opinion and acknowledgment, they feel that others who mention female issues, traits, behaviors, choices, sexuality, medical issues etc, which are part and parcel of being a woman (such as uteri, ovaries, fertility, sex-based oppression, and female on female attraction for example) are excluding them, because they are not female.

Just by that logic, lesbianism in and of itself is "transphobic" to them.

They feel that the exclusion equals non-validation for who they are - because they don't want to be acknowledged for who they actually are, they want to be the other sex. Which is unfortunate, and impossible. And despite the many burnings over the ages... Females aren't witches, we cannot make the impossible become reality.

They can become trans, but they cannot become female. Because to be female is not the same as to lack masculinity, or to lack a penis. A female is not a lesser form of male, it is not about what's "missing". To be female is a positive statement, it is more about what we dΓ³ have than it is about what we don't have in comparison to males. Just that idea alone is rather male-centric, in my eyes.

Just like not everything that is capable of receiving a penis is a vagina. There are positive requirements to be met, before something is a vagina. It is not only about how something relates to males, that defines it.

To seek specifically lesbian love and sex as a "test" of their womanliness is in itself a bit worrisome, but it also shows that there's little thought or care for the females they are pressuring to comply with their self-exploration and (hopefully) journey to self-acceptance. Ironically, many females I know view that kind of "me first" attitude as very "masculine"...

Another mistake is that they misunderstand their own entitlement. Even among lesbians, no females are "owed" sex by other females because they are lesbian and interested. However, MtF trans persons often view sex with lesbian females as a rightfully coming to them when they declare to self-identify as lesbian (which is nonsensical, and unnecessary considering all the letters that come after LGB that can describe their relationships) and therefore they view having that sex withheld as some sort of slight against them. Depending on the individual, they might even find the withholding of sex sufficient to justify your rape and murder, or a constant barrage of threats thereof.

There's an argument to be made to say that they are not "really" trans, but then again saying that can also be "transphobic".

The silver lining is the comedy that they apparently have such a glamorized idea of what it is to be female. The downside is, they can go ahead and opt-out when they start getting treated like one and find out what it's really like. Which also happens.


Disclaimer:

Mind you, this is written from my biased perspective, only in the context that I myself have witnessed and experienced. It is only meant to critique the ideology and those swept up in it fully. And I feel for the trans persons who struggled with this before the trans movement became such a popular topic, who are now being shoved around in todays debates, etc. I've been lucky to met a small number of great ones before this all blew up. I cannot even imagine how intersex people feel, having been put forward as the main reason for all the discord (when they really have much less to do with it than many people think).

I know there are FtM trans persons as well but they have never approached me in these ways, while "modern day" MtF trans persons have and have been very vocal about what they think of themselves, of me, and my alleged responsibilities towards them.

I had to check my gut reaction to your comment and re-read that you were describing the ideology vs the self-identity. I think it gets lost in part of your comment if not read carefully. That is not to say that I disagree with most of it. Obviously I am one of the TS that transitioned well before there was general societal acceptance - passing was and is to an extent, a security issue. The activist community has done us no favors and in fact has done much damage.

Thanks for your excellent comment.

@tracycoyle Thank you very much for that feedback. I realize now too that my post can be taken the wrong way, so I'm grateful that you took the extra time to re-read. I have some vocabulary, but still working on my tact, heh.

Seeing rational voices coming from the trans community, whether the "old-fashioned" or the "modern", is so very needed these days. We're all human, we all deserve to be treated as such, no matter the physical traits.

Again, many thanks for the feedback and indeed for speaking up.

what a great comment! it took me a min to read it all but it was worth it

3

Let me take a shot: I am going to make three distinctions first - 1) transsexuals generally are moving from one sexual identity to the other, either Male to Female(MtF) or Female to Male(FtM) - they may or may not (me) consider themselves part of the broader transgender community; 2) Identity (self) is ALWAYS a matter of self-awareness. I can not tell you what your identity is - you have to tell me. Because of the changes in our society, the traditional cues used by people to identify others have been muddled. 3) Activists, the loudest mouths, are MOST OFTEN the least representative of a group. My personal opinion is that activists, those that generally make their living as such, have ZERO concern for the group they "represent". Their activities are political and their goals are not individual liberty/freedom/rights.

So, given those distinctions let me offer a definition (mine, for the purpose of this conversation but based on the last 40 years of my adult life) of feminism: the effort to ensure that women have the same opportunities, the same rights, and the same "privileges" as men. For the last 30-40 years, many inequities in society between men and women have largely been eliminated. What remains, in my opinion, are those things that are artifacts of the real differences between men and women.

The transgender activist community wants to ignore biological differences - it wants to pretend that biological differences are social constructs. It want to eliminate any distinction between males and females AND to do so 'by fiat'. In other words, ignoring ALL biological evidence, the transgender activists wants people to self-identify: so a 6'4", 300# white male could conceivably SELF identify as a 5'2" 125# black female and demand others recognize them as such. It is insanity AND it is an attempt to ELIMINATE WOMEN by ignoring the actual, biological differences between male and female. Arguing that men have privilege and we should all be treated as MEN there would be true 'equality'

Trans identity exists because in each person that recognizes "trans" within themselves, that recognition is BASED upon the acknowledgment of the differences between male and female. Eliminate that and you eliminate trans identity - a situation conveniently ignored by the trans activists.

Feminism directly recognizes femaleness and womanhood. Trans activists are trying to eliminate those distinctions. They are incompatible.

2

Feminism is based on the idea that gender is a social construct.
Trans people validate the opposite: that gender is inherent to the person, regardless of socialization.

The two ideas cancel each other out.

Although, feminism doesn't HAVE to be based on the idea that gender is a social construct, but feminism in its current form definitely is based on that idea.

Yea, I was going to note that the current state of Feminism is a refutation of it's historical foundations.

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