1. I agree it was definitely a business move overall.

2. I would normally agree with that, but the trans pages I have seen have some very awful things on them as much as the GC pages I saw did (kill Terfs, rape Terfs, punch Terfs, etc.). I would say they can be very radical/alt left, thankfully there are vocal trans people out there that are trying to push back. I think the removal of the GC page stands as an example of what women are pushing back on: being silenced (women can't even talk about something that directly affects them). This is why some say it is misogyny. In my opinion freedom of speech applies to everyone, and there is no reason to silence women discussing they abuse they receive online and/or what it means to be a woman.

3. My understanding is that not using proper pronouns is considered some form of hate speech. I believe there is a term (TIMs) that some GC people use, too, that is often pushed as hate speech. When I scrolled through the pages I personally never saw anything violent or threatening.

4. I agree. And ditto about not being on those platforms.

5. Agreed. I am an advocate for that as well. Healthy conversation is what builds bridges. It's a pretty sad world to live in right now because people are so mean to each other and so steeped in their own stuff they can't even have rational conversations.

@WhatIsGoingOn I'm paring down the list, since the other points seem concluded (but please bring them back up if I skipped something).

2. I don't use or support Reddit, so I was just going on what I read in the articles. If what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt you), it does seem like a double standard. As to why Reddit made that decision? Hell if I know. I don't blame people for interpreting it as misogynistic. Based on the info you gave me, I'd also interpret it as misogynistic.

3. My personal opinion is that it can be (but is not always) hateful to use the incorrect pronoun to refer to a transgender person. I also have a personal dislike of the term "TIM."
   But there's a lot of stuff in the world I don't agree with. I am not for shutting people down just for discussing ideas, even if they use words I don't agree with. So, again... Reddit doesn't reflect my personal beliefs on that!

@RavenMStark

I think they made that decision because it is the PC/Woke thing to do. You mentioned you are transgender - do you mind if I ask if you moved from male to female or female to male? If it is the later, do you think it helps you better identify forms of misogyny since you were socialized female to some degree?

I understand your position. I can certainly understand the frustration of TIMs if it is intended to be derogatory, which I think it is (but I am not an expert on its origins so I can't be sure). As far as pronouns go I aim to be courteous and supportive. That said I also understand the point of view of people who don't want to use them because they believe it is incorrect or pandering to do so (ex: Posie Parker).

I certainly don't have all my thoughts or opinions about it sorted out yet, and when people are not willing to dialogue or work towards solutions it's near impossible to do so. I can say my feelings have changed quite a bit over the last few years. A few years ago (and everything prior to that) I was definitely more casual about it and very supportive, but in the recent years I have seen the impact it's had on the boundaries of women and other LGBTQ members and I have pulled back and am now reassessing.

I used to be much more liberal - but like Arielle - I have begun to pump the breaks because I'm seeing some insanity and serious hypocrisy.

All that said, I really appreciate hearing your thoughts and your desire to have conversations is wonderful. Don't ever lose it! It's difficult to find in this mad world!

@WhatIsGoingOn I think you're right. They did it for the "woke" points. Sigh.

I don't mind any questions you want to ask me. I don't take offense to people asking genuine questions! I'm a trans man - I transitioned from female to male. (Think of "trans" as a qualifier. I'm a man - and trans is the type of man I am!) I do think this helps me understand and relate to misogyny. I was born female, raised female, socialized female, and seen by the world as a female for 20 odd years of my life. Good question!

I didn't know who Posie Parker was until I put the name into Google just now. And I only glanced - so, I can't say much on that. I understand the viewpoint of those who feel it's "not correct" or "pandering," but I also think that viewpoint tends to be callous and/or uninformed. (Depending on specific contexts, of course!)

I'm willing to talk to you and anyone else! I consider myself a polite and rational person. I think I have a lot invested in women's rights. I want to learn and understand alternate viewpoints, even if I don't agree with them.

I can also relate to you and Arielle. I've traditionally been a liberal, but I don't like the way things have been going in the left. I also lost a former friend group because when they became an SJW echo chamber, I continued to ask critical thinking type questions. I was labelled a racist, transphobe, Fascist, Nazi, and so on, often just for asking questions (not even backing an opposing view).

Thank you for your kind words! I really appreciate talking to you too! This is exactly what I was hoping to find on Slug.

@RavenMStark Ditto to so much you said!

I'm sorry you were isolated from your group of friends. I can relate to how crappy that feels and I hope you and everyone who is searching for dialogue connections continue to find them. I think right now people who value honesty and fairness across the board are not well received when challenging friends and loved ones. It sounds like you are one of the people who values honesty and fairness. Cheers to that I'm right there with you!

If you had told me a year ago that I would using phrases like SJW to describe friends (or former friends) I would have thought, "No that's silly. We disagree on things here and there, but they'd never be completely irrational or mean or delusional..." I was quite wrong, and feel no shame in admitting it.

I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts and opinions in the future as there topics continue to be discussed!

I would like to say that this is true but I am a mod over there on another sub and in the mod chat the activists hounded them for over a year to ban it. They brought up posts written by people who had not subbed and fresh new accounts. It's not about advertisers or they wouldn't allow rape porn subs, choking subs, and subs where they draw pictures of child porn.

@ThomasinaPaine Thank you for this additional info! That helps me shape my opinions.

That screenshot makes it look like trans activists are involved in the bans of gender critical groups. It also mentions "Reddit's new rules."

So, this would suggest that 1) Reddit has new rules that gender critical groups are breaking and trans activists decided to try to use the rules to get them banned. And/or 2) Reddit made the new rules based on the demands of trans activists, which led to #1. I can't think of another logical conclusion.

Either of those statements could be true in addition to brands pushing for the bans. The motivation of brands for doing so is another tangent, but we can make some broad assumptions about that being related to PC/woke culture.

As for rape porn, choking subs, child porn, ect... That's vile. I don't support or use Reddit and I just have nothing positive or helpful to say about that.

@RavenMStark Honestly none of reddit outside of makeup, barbecue, skincare, or gaming has value when it comes to large brands. This is Bolshevik marketing--where ironically the manufacturer tries to tell you what you want to watch, read, eat, or play with.

@ThomasinaPaine On my way!

Gender Critical theory is that we are born with a sex and everything else is either individually or socially constructed. It was closely associated with 2nd Wave Feminism that said women can like sports, join the military, chop their hair off, etc without anyone telling them they aren't a real woman if they do that. It was a middle finger to patriarchy that said women like dresses, makeup, staying home and baking cakes.

Hi Raven!

You ask a great question. Here's what I have learned and seen so far:

Trans activists and the loudest trans community members (note: not trans people as a whole) considered gendercritical women to be terfs who hate trans people, etc.

My limited experience viewing the GC subreddits (which was after the JK Rowling stuff) reflected a variety of women across the board - some that had questions, concerns, criticisms (both fair and troll-y IMO), and some radicals.

I'm not an expert on it, but I think the answer to your question will vary based on who you speak to. Are you speaking to someone who is more radical? Or are you speaking to somebody who is supportive of the general trans community but has very serious reservations about how to/or if trans people should be integrated into more private/intimate spaces and specifically how trans people may affect laws (almost exclusively in regards to women since women have advocated for protected spaces because of a lifetime of abuse and oppression)? My understanding is that women in the later category also identify as GC (or mostly they are told they are GCs because they don't 0% go along with trans activists).

@ThomasinaPaine Thank you for your response! To this, I say "RIGHT ON." I can back everything you just talked about. That's the same feminism I learned about in college...

But I'm assuming there's more to the story. I'm doing what I should have done first -- I'm Googling "gender critical page on reddit" and reading articles I find to give me more info. If you have a specific article or set of articles from a POV you want me to see, please send them my way!

I'll be back when I feel I know enough about it to give an informed comment.

@RavenMStark They've been accused of terrible stuff since they got banned because now they cannot defend themselves. My biggest issue with them was they are a bit ALL MEN ARE BAD, mmkay.

But free speech is important and I don't have to think you're correct to believe you have a right to speak.

@ThomasinaPaine I'm with you on that one!

@WhatIsGoingOn Thank you for your answer! I went and read some articles on the subject to help form my opinion. I made a new post after that, but I like having a more individual type response like this... I know that the media is not fair and I would rather trust a personal account than what the media tells me.

If I could have, I'd have gone onto the Gender Critical Reddit to see exactly what people were posting. I couldn't find any real examples in the articles I read. But the Reddit is blocked now, so I can't see any of the posts that got them blocked. I find that pretty annoying!

I just saw this come up in the news. I thought you might find it a useful topic to discuss:

[npr.org]

@WhatIsGoingOn There very few successful challenges to transgender activism. I have never seen a group gain so much political and social power so quickly. Transgender activists have used it to stifle speech. It's the most authoritarian movement I have ever seen and it makes me very sad.

What has been done to Maya Forstater, Megan Murphy, and JK Rowling is criminal. These are women who have supported all marginalized communities for years but because they say that sex is real they're been fired, threatened, and their fans harassed.

You can volunteer to use pronouns, show support in the workplace but if you disagree on a single issue when it comes to the subject of transgenderism you are canceled.

The irony is that 30 years ago it was "transsexualism" with the goal of transforming into the opposite sex and now if you say transexual you are called a bigot because we can't talk about sex anymore. It's transgender. The truth is whatever these activists say it is and that truth can change without warning.

Twelve years ago I was a woman based on my sex organs and an individual based on my interests and likes. I could shave my head be butch as hell and have a girlfriend and still be a woman. My butch friends have had that removed from them. They are not "cis" to society and therefore they are being labeled a man. It's like women are the only people who don't get to keep their agency, their language, or their worldview.

When do males have to face this? What gay men are called bigots for not dating a transgender man?

I like transgender people. I am afraid of transgender activism.

@ThomasinaPaine I hear all your concerns. I find many of them to make sense.

For me I try to say trans activists/younger generation because I am finding more and more trans people (usually 30+) who also do not like the recent onslaught of activism and find some of it quite offensive. Ex: being non-binary sort of erases and invalidates men/women/trans people, too. Some have even claimed that it was non-binary people who started some of this fuss.

Men won't have to face it. Trans men can't compete with them in sports and they don't historically need safe places away from women. Their "territory" in life is quite well off.