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Sam often points to problematic beliefs about God, held by those who believe in his existence, as evidence that God does not, in fact, exist at all. For example, in his Atheist Manifesto, he points to the audacity of those who thank God for sparing their lives during a natural disaster, when that same disaster killed innocent children.

This seems illogical to me, but it's similar to arguments I see from atheist fairly often. They point to specific beliefs about the character or nature of God that seem, and indeed may be, ridiculous, and act as though that settles the matter. They pat themselves on the back as they waste their time railing against the worst cases for God's existence.

In the case referenced above, could it be that even though humans often pray for God to save them from physical hardship, that is not what God is really interested in? Could it be that if/when he does help us, he does so not really to save our lives, or to save us from some hardship, but to help us develop faith? Could it be that when he more often does not help us. it's for the same reason? Maybe God placed us into a world of chaos so we could struggle, toil, and exercise faith as we try to turn that chaos into habitable order (to paraphrase Jordan Peterson)... which process would teach us to become creative creatures, as God himself is.

For the sake of the argument, just say you believe our existence stretches beyond this life, and that we are, in fact, eternal beings. If that is the case, then maybe the trials of this brief moment we call mortality are not all that significant... even death in its most terrible forms. Maybe we are merely in preparation for something far greater. Maybe encountering chaos and evil is actually the whole point.

I believe the only hardships that will not work toward our good, in the end, will be those we bring upon ourselves by giving in to that part of our natures that are hellish, evil, and malevolent. The ultimate expression of the darker side of human nature is what constitutes hell, in my opinion. And the ultimate expression of the exalted part of human nature is what constitutes heaven.

Thoughts?

p.s. I joined this group, not because I agree with Sam's atheism, but because I appreciate how open and civil he is in debates. I hope responses to my comment can reflect that.

jnaatjes 7 Feb 25
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0

Hell= judgement

Heaven= forgiveness

Atheists believe in government, which doesn't exist, and is created by man's imagination, just as theists believe in God. Both are the same.

0

Why would you take ANYTHING on faith at all? Faith is the excuse people give to believe something when they don't have a good reason to.

Also, why do you believe that a strength in faith is more important than innocent children dying? What kind of monster of a God rules this universe?

0

Sorry but the premise you establish about the existence of God has no evidence and furthermore does not stand the test of basic reason and common sense. Only when the existence of a God with such specific characters and attributes be reasonably justified, can we ever proceed to whether the said God is helping humans build faith or killing humans for whatever reason. I still do not understand what gives theists the strength to validate the existence of a God with a specific character. I am sure the theists realize that there are several such Gods throughout the world with divergent character attributes. The character of a God changes based on which part of the world the theory of God was developed. Based on the prevalent culture and language, the narrative of God significantly changes.

If there is only one GOD, then that one god must encompass everything without discrimination and I actually can reasonably agree to the existence of such a God. But this kind of God cannot be found in the dogmas of any religion. This kind of God can only be discovered by individual inquisition and curiosity. This kind of God reveals to anyone who can think deep enough about trivial things and be astonished in the miracle that seems to unfold this very moment. This kind of God lacks character, gender, persona or anything human. This kind of God is only experienced and not explained. I think religions of the world are an attempt to explain this God and that's where they brutally and miserably fail.

I would like to quote Einstein. "The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a strange, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead".

Source:

Albert Einstein

0

Atheistic arguements attacking a generic word have very little validity, whether the generic word is capitalized or not. God is a generic placeholder, and the arguement presented that negates belief(Suffering innocents and such) seem fall in the realm of discrediting gods like zeus or posidon or aphrodite. And christians who have a god i suspect as well. I have an omnipater. And like all fathers, there is a time let your child be.

2

I may offer two views: the Judeo-Christian view and classical-far eastern philosophy. Those who have survived horrendous evil (natural evil) with faithful Judeo-Christian worldview would not only thank God in prayers but would also pray and mourn for the loss of others (However, from my experience it is not only religious who participate in mourning but the atheists as well). It seems me that the statement is implying that 1) the survivor who is thanking God might be faithful but empathetically challenged, and 2) God cares only for the survivors – rendering him unjust and evil.
The first claim, if I understood correctly, has no basis. To the second claim, any arguments for theodicy have always failed. Theodicy does not work including Irenaean theodicy of soul-making which you seem to allude to in one of the responses. Though Plantinga has offered the -will defence for explaining the evil caused by human agency, the problem of natural evil still exists. (There are some writings on natural evil by Eleonore Stump worth reading if you are Aquinas fan)
Judeo-Christian view does not believe it is God who placed us struggle, but it is due “the Fall” of Adam and Eve. (One could argue that if God is omniscience, then he indeed placed Adam and Eve struggle but here I would argue human agents have libertarian -will) Given that humans live in a fallen world. In my view, the Book of Job offers grounds for believers wrestle on why evil and suffering?

  1. There is absolutely no pat answer.
  2. Embrace life without the answer
  3. Anticipate the final answer which is in the coming of Christ.
    Thus, the Judeo-Christian view is live in hope despite evil and suffering. In contrast, classical far-eastern philosophy provides a much simpler answer: heaven and earth are not humane.
    (I have no intention of mitigating the traumatic impact caused by suffering and evil as I have witnessed first hand. English is my third language. If there are mistakes, please be kind.)
Saldan Level 2 Mar 5, 2019

Thank you for that perspective.

I don't know a lot about the beliefs of non Judeo-Christian religions. My own faith seems to be the only, or one of the few, Judeo-Christian faiths that believe in a God who is obedient to natural laws.

I believe he grants us our free will because he has to. He allows natural disasters to occur because he has to. He allowed the Fall because it had to happen. It's not that God is powerless to intervene in anything. But overly involving himself, not allowing us to contend with the world, would defeat the purpose of our existence. We cannot achieve our potential without this mortal experience, and God cannot change that fact.

Do any teachings like this exist in eastern philosophies or religions?

3

I'm with Rus on this one I think.
I cannot understand how a great creator could allow such atrocities to take place, and accept it as "free will". I don't think we are special compared to the giant whales of the sea or the tigers in the jungle. We are just smarter and and have the physical attributes to build around us. I feel like the more we increase in population, the less altruistic we are. Look at the state of the world, creators don't allow their projects to fall to pieces and yet we still pray to this "God" who seems to have given us the middle finger and disappeared.

Don't get me wrong, I've no idea if there is a higher power, I don't think our brains are designed to know that answer but if there is one, we're being way too ambitious about it's "love".

I like what you said about malevolence and evil coming through choice and action, I agree. Whatever we are, we should be finely tuning our conscious antenna for good. Give out good and try to receive positive back. Our measly five senses can at least do that, and when we die perhaps we are free from the shackles of our biology and something incredible shows itself in a much more powerful state 🙂

I'm interested to hear what you think of my response to SpikeTalon below.

Also, given your take on humanity, I wonder what you think about the importance of the sovereignty of the individual... I can't personally see how you'd have anything but a collectivist viewpoint with that view of the human race, but I'd be interested to understand your thought process.

You would as a Creator if the only way to truly know if the simulation was working is to remain neutral. The Creator would have to understand that tinkering with the simulation after it starts with tamper with the results, and since no human has ever been able to truly experience another humans journey during the simulation, it has to continue.
We've been given Easter eggs and clues to try to unlocked what I can only describe as the fourth dimension, sixth sense, or whatever through psychedelics, prayer, and meditation. Deepening our own connection to the universe

@Rus-T-Balls too many religious people scoff at stuff like this, not realizing that it's just different verbiage describing something very similar to what they believe.

@jnaatjes my friend I've spent a decade researching, the roots of most theologies I.e. Christian, Mormon, Islamic, even different teachings like from the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh that wired cult in Oregon had interesting therapy technics. Also with people who just believe in the Universe. I felt like everyone had a different piece to puzzle. While missing some key pieces. Just tried to make it all fit

@Rus-T-Balls I agree. I believe strongly in my own faith, but I learn a lot from other faiths as well.

@jnaatjes So, i'll try not confuse myself with this one lol, bare in mind I am pretty new these forms...but my view on sovereignty of the individual is that it's something that needs be nurtured. I don't think it's something that everyone can have the privilege of attaining. A good upbringing or a harsh realization through negative experience helps bring this about for the individual and they can then see clearly how they, as the individual can contribute a proper functioning society. That said, I think most people do need governed. I think everyone should be treated equal under those laws with no special privileges based on identity. I also think the only way for this work is make sure that the rules are based on rational evidence. No rational evidence of positive outcome = No rule. Case and point, the many war torn Islamic counties who believe in public beheadings based on which version of God's book should be followed. Sorry, I don't mean to drift from the point but another thing I'd say was that I think individual responsibility falls apart when we look at the actions of the many, 1 person with good intentions at heart can act negatively towards something if most other people in his/her group, neighborhood, town, even country are doing so. We see this in the environment every day/ "Well, I don't throw litter, but this place is a dump so..." or "Well I WOULD take care of my health more, but everyone else was buying junk..." These are just small examples, but unfortunately it seems like this world is tilting towards entropy very quickly with this ripple effect of negative behaviors, and it seems like there are not enough people taking individual responsibility for that ripple effect to kick in and steer it the other way.

@Limitmanjagers The failings of human nature you point to are absolutely correct. But I would say that 1) they are also true of those who govern (maybe especially true of them, despite how intellectual and elite they might think themselves to be), 2) even a virtuous dictator is not able to see the full consequences of his decisions at the individual level, and so often causes serious problems by his virtuous rule making, and 3) there is also an exalted and beautiful side of human nature that is easy to miss if we are too preoccupied with the collective. If you turn off the news and social media and interact with real humans, you start to see it day to day in the good deeds of ordinary people... and that's what really keeps the darkness at bay (thank you, Gandalf the Grey).

People make all kinds of mistakes, but humanity tends to move in the right direction if people are free and virtue is cherished. And even without the presence of virtue, I'd rather individuals bring about their own demise than have it thrust upon them by the tyranny of the collective. At least they'll have a choice in the matter.

As far as the world getting worse the larger humanity gets, I don't really see that being the case. We've never had a larger global population, and yet we've never had lower global poverty rates. We are less violent than we used to be. We've never been less racist. We've never been more egalitarian.

And all of that, I believe, is the result of the meshing of Judeo-Christian values with certain aspects of enlightenment thinking and philosophy- specifically empiricism and liberalism (the latter of which actually sprung from traditional Judeo-Christian ideas, which you see if you read people like John Locke).

@jnaatjes It definitely is true of those who govern as well, hence why I strongly disagree with the far left socialist "nice guy" view. They are naive to think that someone within their so called "utopia" wouldn't stab them in the back in the name of their own interests at any minute. The thing is, I feel like what you're saying about humanity moving in the right direction is only true of the west. I feel like we look further east and this is not so true, The middle eastern countries are still killing each other over "false gods". China are still belching more CO2 into the atmosphere than any other nation tenfold. Indonesia are responsible for more than half the ocean plastic. Australia are about to dump millions of tons of sludge into the reefs because they have no other means of disposal. I'm more than willing to learn on this topic and if anything I'm saying comes off as arrogant or irrational it's purely from a place of worry and concern for our planet. I'm not saying the west is perfect but we sure as hell seem to have a more caring collective strategy.

Hi, please check out the new "Neil deGrasse Tyson Appreciation" page.

@graesvol 🙂 Thanks. I'll have a look for this, it's something I'm very interested in.

1

What a lot of Christians don't realize is that ancient Hebrews practiced ritual transcendental experiences leading to these fantastic visions that helped us understand The human condition but aren't actually literal.

I like Jordan Peterson's take...There's a lot about it that can be explained psychologically. It also could be literal... who knows... but the 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Certainly plenty of literal occurrences all through out Christianity

1

As someone who believes that we were created on purpose. I also don't believe that our creator is some kid sitting on top of an ant hill with a magnifying glass, determining who gets to live and die. There's an interesting theory about simulation when we were created to to experience this world in trillions and trillions of different ways. The only flaw in the simulation is we are not able to truly comprehend what it's like to live somebody else's life so therefore the simulation continues until you get to the next plane of consciousness.

I also don't think God is a kid with a magnifine glass. I do think he's deeply interested in and loves each of us personally, but I think he's much less of an interventionist than we sometimes suppose.

God didn't make something bad happen to you because he's trying to teach you something specific related to that specific trial. Rather, he placed you into a chaotic world, where people have free will, and where lots of crappy stuff happens, and he did so you could learn a single lesson... how to transcend it.

And yeah... it seems we've tapped into something with technology. Especially with AI. There might be something of God in that. I don't know.

3

While I understand where you're coming from, I too find it very difficult to believe in an powerful god being that allows children to suffer and die from starvation. Let me ask you this... if you were god and went through great lengths to create unique individual human beings, wouldn't you want your creations to flourish (assuming you are a caring parent that is)?

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give you a thorough answer because I sense it’s an honest question. I hope I can say something of value, and hope you’ll take the time to read it.

You ask an important question, which I do not think has been adequately answered by most theistic religions. For context on my answer, I am LDS (or Mormon), and one of the reasons I identify with my own religion is because it offers, in my opinion, a better answer to this problem.

I can't speak very well for non Judeo-Christian faiths, but mainstream Judeo-Christianity would respond by saying that God allows us to suffer so we can be perfected. So we can learn and develop, similar to what I said above. C.S. Lewis, for instance, said that if there is a God, and if he is omnipotent and good, then the suffering must be absolutely necessary because even a halfway decent being could not allow it to occur otherwise.

I believe this is true, but incomplete. Because the next logical question is, "Well, why is it necessary? If God is all powerful, why doesn't he just perfect us without the suffering? If he writes the rules, then why did he write that rule? Why not just create us perfect in the first place?" A typical Christian usually responds to this by saying something like, "We don't understand the purposes of God, so we shouldn't question why." But that's not good enough for me, because even if our suffering is somehow immaterial to an eternal being like God, it is very real and horrible for us. If the assumptions about God made by most Christians are true, then he is either a horrible God who likes to watch us suffer, or he is indifferent... which is not much better.

But there are a few key assumptions that mainstream Judeo-Christianity makes that LDS theology does not. Latter-Day Saints have a nuanced view on what it means for God to be omnipotent, and on what he means when we say he created us.

So first, my faith teaches of a God who is obedient to, and bound by, natural law. For example, there are laws pertaining to justice, which God cannot break. A verse in the Book of Mormon, Alma 42:25, reads "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God."

That line, "God would cease to be God," would be called blasphemous by most Christians. But LDS theology teaches that when we say God is all powerful, it doesn't mean he can just do whatever he wants. Rather, it means that there are laws governing the universe- physical laws like gravity, evolutionary biology, etc., and moral laws like justice, mercy, free will, etc.- and the reason God is God is because he has reached a point in his progression as a being that he perfectly understands all of those laws, and he is perfectly obedient to them. And his understanding and obedience- his ultimate expression of walking up to what is true- is what gives him power, just as it does with us when we choose to speak and act on truth. So when we say he's "all powerful" what that really means is he has all the power that exists in the universe because he follows the laws that govern them.

So if we accept that, the question still remains, why did God create creatures like us in the first place, knowing we would suffer and, if Christianity is true, most would never hear or accept the name of Christ and would be doomed to an eternity in hell?

And this gets to that second assumption- the idea that God created us. Latter-Day Saints do believe God “created us,” but again, it's more nuanced. Joseph Smith taught that our “intelligence,” or our consciousness, has always existed… that it was not created, nor can it be destroyed. Before this life, God, who was a much more advanced being than we were- with a perfected body of flesh bones and perfect intelligence (that’s an idea unique to LDS doctrine as well, btw)- found himself in the midst of these intelligences. His character is such that he wants other beings to experience the fullest measure of joy possible, and so he sought to help these intelligences progress to be more like him.

He “created,” or organized, our spirits, which you could see as representing another step in the progression of our consciousness. This added to our joy. But we then saw that he had a physical body and had more knowledge than we could possibly attain. We wanted to be like him, and he wanted us to be like him, so he gave us a plan- which Latter-Day Saints refer to as the Plan of Salvation, or the Plan of Happiness.

Joseph Smith taught, “As man now is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” When God laid out this plan, he knew that in order for us to become like him, the “eternal law” required that we come to a fallen world, and obtain a mortal body capable of experiencing pleasure, pain, health, sickness, etc… just as he had. They also required that we forget our premortal existence and learn through our own experience, and through faith, to choose good and reject evil… again, just as he had. We had to come to a world of chaos so we could learn to become like God- so that we could learn to create order from chaos (thanks, Jordan Peterson) the same way God does.

God knew we would not do this perfectly, and far from it. And again, one of the laws that God is bound by is the law of Justice. And the law of Justice, according to LDS theology, says that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. But while God is a God of Justice, he is also a God of Mercy.

Thus, enters Jesus Christ, who, because both his spiritual and physical bodies were descended from God, was able to live a sinless life, and thus was able to offer himself as a sacrifice to satisfy the demands of justice (again, a law which God could not break) and overcome the chains of death, so that we could be forgiven for our sins, overcome death ourselves, and retain new, perfected bodies like the one God has- and then to progress on to ultimately become as God in every way.

So, in summary:

  1. The whole purpose of this life is to become like God.
  2. The only way we could do that was by separating ourselves from him, and learning for ourselves how to transcend a world that is full of chaos, pain, and suffering- which is exactly what made God a God in the first place.
  3. God does not change these rules, because doing so would violate the natural, eternal laws, and he would, hypothetically, cease to be God.
  4. The only way toward that goal is through Jesus Christ, because he is the one who holds power over death and hell, and it is in him alone that we must trust, and try to emulate.

I know that’s a lot. I’d be happy to hear any questions or push back you have. But the only reason I believe it is because a) it’s something I can make sense of, b) it gives me a sense of how to act that seems consistent with truth, and c) walking up to that truth has made a world of difference in my life.

On a political note, this is one of the reason I believe so strongly in the sovereignty of the individual. Because if all of this is even remotely true, then the value of the individual is infinite.

And now I really should get back to work haha…

To further this: a lot of the arguments that support "God's action" (I.e. child starvation or illness for instance, which is sadly still fairly common) is to improve the Other's faith (I.e. parents who had to go through a loss) - do not seem to take into account that it still does imply what can be easily considered an innocent being (a child) will suffer great pain to strengthen the faith of the Other. I find it really hard to defend the idea that God is without "fault" into causing great suffering, especially towards beings that cannot be considered sinners as yet, no matter the reasons behind it - unless it is considered that all humans carry the seed of sin in within themselves. Still, if we follow through with your message and we are indeed in preparation of something greater, it remains a mystery to me why we need to for instance die in horrible ways for it - if there is something greater beyond, as you put it, why even let life take its course and allow ourselves to face a terrible destiny when we could just choose then to join the greater beyond by for example committing suicide, which is highly forbidden in most (if not all) monotheistic religions. It just seems to lack a step in the reasoning which is why I guess there need be a blind faith to accept it.

@jnaatjes Thank you for the feedback, and some interesting thoughts there. Regarding the suffering in this world part, I'm not totally against there being hardships in the world, I merely question why are some challenges so horrid in nature (for example starvation)? I have to go for now, catch up on my messages, just wanted to let you know I read your reply and thank you for the feedback.

@blul0tuus I know my comment was very long, so no worries if you didn't catch it, but the reason this sometimes hellish existence is necessary is because a) before this life we all wanted to becomes like God, b) natural law dictates that the only way we could achieve that was by coming to a fallen world like this one and struggle to overcome the cruel chaos that often is our existence, and c) God cannot change those laws... he is just as bound by them as we are.

I agree it's hollow to say a child must suffer (say of starvation) so that the parents can learn some lesson. I had a 6 year old niece struck and killed by a car couple years ago, I couldn't imagine in good conscience saying something like that to her parents.

But I don't think that's how it works. I think we live in a world of chaotic problems, and so things like that naturally follow. The only hardship God actually gave us was sending us here in the first place... and that was a hardship we all signed up for when we agreed to come to this life... and the only lesson he's really trying to teach us is how to bring order to that chaos.

@blul0tuus, @SpikeTalon again, I'd say the only reason terrible things like that happen is because we are trying to become like God. And to achieve such a lofty goal, we have to live in a world where things like that happen. I think a lot of it is nothing more than chance, or evil actions of other people in the world. The reason God doesn't intervene is because humanity, to an extent, must be left alone to fight for its own destiny. If we literally are trying to become Gods- perfect in every way- we must take a very high risk and pay a very high price. Latter-Day Saints believe that literally everyone ever born on this earth agreed to this before coming here because they aspired to something greater. We couldn't have just gone straight to a state of perfection without the experiences of this life. The laws of eternity would not have allowed it, and God was bound by those laws.

@jnaatjes This reminds me, in a rather abstract way, of how they teach stress management in the military. I was listening to Andy Stumpf's Cleared Hot podcast the other day and he was talking about how the trainees are consistently put into situations where pain, suffering and failure are almost a guarantee. They do this in an effort to inoculate the trainees against stress in order to produce humans capable of maintaining composure during extreme conditions. Could it be that God has put us here as Hitchens would say to be "born into a losing struggle" in an attempt to create infinite beings capable of goodness and clarity even in the most extreme of conditions? I am not a believer, but I find the thought experiment to be interesting.

@RomanKane I believe that to be true. It makes a lot of sense to me, which helps a ton because I tend to be an overly logical person. The only reason, for me, that this translates from an interesting theory into an actual belief is because I've had personal experiences with God. As I've struggled though life's problems, I've felt a power beyond my own enable me to keep going. I've had thoughts and foresight and experiences I can't explain otherwise. I've spent a lot of time studying, praying and meditating, and have felt connections to truth I didn't have before.

But for me, the logic often had to come first before I really felt something, before my faith could grow. I had to first have a reason to believe and it grew from there. I hope this discussion gives some people a reason and helps them see there could actually be some rational answers to life's toughest questions... like the problem of evil.

@jnaatjes

I have a question regarding God and his relationship with the natural law (time, space, and matter) and the moral law.

Can an omnipotent God truly be that if he is a mere result of the forces of said laws?

To say God is a progression implies that there are other forces outside and greater than God. To be omnipotent would to exist outside the natural law, which allows for creation of our reality and the manipulation of laws (miracles). God wouldn’t have perfected the moral law but the moral law would be a reflection of who God is.

God, to me, is the most basic aspect of anything you try to break down. He’s dark matter, the last dimension, the logos, he encompasses the Toa, the author of the archetypes, he says “I Am”. To fully understand who he is is like trying to fully understand eternity. We definitely can’t in this state and maybe never.

I’d appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Sam Harris makes many generalities about Christians, which is so diverse in sects or denominations. It is even further diverse in individual beliefs. For instance there is a large movement today that only recognize the New Testament as applicable to the new covenant Christianity, after Jesus completed all requirements of the old Abrahamic or Moses covenant. Thus to New Testament Christians, much of Sam Harris’ criticism and conclusions are not a true intellectual analysis. The diversity in all religions is likely also too personal for hard definitive conclusions. He can only be giving honest determinations and judgments, in small minority’s of a religion. The fault with religions isn’t God, but mans manipulation for power, agenda, and podcast.

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