Interesting. I'll look into. Thanks.

So I checked out Ezekiel 28:13-15 describing Eden, checking several sources. Then I checked several sources for Daniel 4:17. The most explanatory one is located here and is very understandable. The author of that internet entry seems to have done a good job: [biblegems-pastorcoleman.blogspot.com]

I like to see the words as they appear in the bible, then look at some interpretations of those words as so many mean something different depending on the language they were translated from. Plain English is not so plain is it?

I will see now your Rabbi's site.

PS: So when were the Angels created?

@toronto_Georgia Apparently, before us.

@eschatologyguy Sorry, not laughing out of disrespect.

@toronto_Georgia Lots of interesting things we'll be learning. Maybe some would confirm our suspicions. Others might be the exact opposite of it.

@toronto_Georgia the blogspot is an interesting take on it, but I take a more literal view, such as the angel powers/beings...Dobiel would be the guardian angel of Persia for example...or take into consideration Samael

I use BibleHub &/or BibleGateway depending on who I am dealing with, as they have lengthy translation interpretations at both places. but primarily I rely on Gateway & compare from there the Orthodox Jewish Bible to the various Christian ones.The New American Standard version is comfortable for me usually. BibleHub uses the Jewish Publication Society of Tanakh 1917, I think it is.....very long day for me, and just had class with the Rabbi and KTS - Kosher Torah School

@Weltansicht Just be careful. There are plenty of indications that the Talmud is what Jesus referred to as the leaven or the "yeast" of the Pharisees.

@toronto_Georgia Hello, hope you are having a good day. Direct access if you still have the questions: arieltzadok@gmail.com

@toronto_Georgia when angels were created ~ Proverbs 8:22

@Weltansicht

Proverbs 8:22 - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

To read the entire chapter, the word "me" is wisdom. Without that focus it is easy to read incorrect things into this verse.

It is unclear to me how the creation of angels is represented in that verse.

@toronto_Georgia yes that is true about wisdom. But take into account the levels of meanings, not just one. There's literal, there's metaphorical, there's symbolism, there's deeper hidden ones.

Proverbs 8:1-11 Proverbs 8:12-21 Proverbs 8:22-31 Proverbs 8:32-36 is it not written that way?

Other than that, you will have to extrapolate from Genesis 1:1 and take all the breadcrumbs through out the Scriptures maybe start with Job 38:4-7

All the sons of G-D stand before the Throne 3 times a year, in Job as well. Job 1:6 Job 2:1

LOL, for sure. I had just got to thinking what a horrific shame that Lucifer should seem to be so freely running things when you look at the beauty and unlimited creation God made. Shame to see such evil dwell in it and threaten all that is God's. While I was thinking that I seemed to remember that you have the impression at so many places in the bible that Satan is always messing with everything. So me, a believing but also questioning soul couldn't figure how this came to be. And like Paul, ultimately I know I believe deeply and have so often just accepted that I am not to know and that acceptance is a good thing.

@toronto_Georgia We are told it started with pride. Here's another one from Paul:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." ~1 Corinthians 13:12

Regarding the origins of the Cabala, I was recently led to this series of talks on the origins starting in Sumer. It is a 19 part presentation, each part is about 1/2 an hour long. Seems to be extremely well researched and explains many of the current societies and the entire banking system as well. The Cabala part begins right in Part 1.
[redpilldocumentaries.com]

It is so lengthy but good that I'm still listening to it as I can and will be for a least a week from now to finish it.

@toronto_Georgia Erroneous metaphysical opinions masquerading as facts. If they got things right, the temple would still be standing and the diaspora wouldn't have happened.

@eschatologyguy John 4:22

The diaspora had to happen, otherwise Jeremiah 16 would not happen, as in hunters on the mountains looking for the faithful. You can take the people out of Egypt or the world (Exodus) but you can not take the world out of the people.

@Weltansicht I guess it had to, but if you really stringed the pearls, these prophecies were out of foreknowledge that the leaders of those days would misinterpret things and miss out on the time of their visitation (Luke 19:41-44). What the 1st century rabbis missed out on was Dan 9:25. Had they literally done their math, they could have just sat by the city gates on April 6, 32AD and waited for who would drop by riding a donkey's foal (Zach 9:9). Having said that, I guess we all have our little errors in interpretation. How else could you explain so many denominations?

For Jews, prophecy is pattern. For Gentiles, it is foretelling and fulfillment. I believe both views hold water. If the exact day of the first visitation was given in Daniel 9:25, there ought to be another passage in the Jewish bible that gives the day of Messiah's return (Hos 5:15) to reconcile the Jewish people to Himself. I strongly believe that that passage is Hosea 6:1-3. From the "smiting" of Aug 6, 70AD (the day the temple was destroyed), you "do the math" of what these "two days" mean, to the greatest reconciliation on earth, the "healing" and the "binding up" (as of wounds).

@eschatologyguy Perhaps they missed out on Dan 9:25 and study a bit more astutely on Dan 9:2 BUT that is not for me to say. Just like commenting on Adam & Eve and the forbidden fruit. Have you considered it a metaphor?

As for the riding of the donkey and timing, well that's another interpretation. Much like his statement of destroying & rebuilding the temple in 3 days. Cherry picking what's literal and what's metaphorical or symbolism gets dangerous, and it is how fanatics can get delusional & deadly.

Consider Ezekiel and his limited vocabulary trying to describe what he saw at the beginning of his book. Consider Zechariah 5 and the scroll and its dimensions size. It corresponds to a satellite dimensions released from a space shuttle. I am not saying it is that, just contemplating. You know as well as I do, that there are many meanings and deeper ones than what appears on the surface.

To explain the so many denominations. In Jewish thought, if 2 were marooned on a deserted island, they would build 3 shuls/synagogues. One for each of them and one that they would swear never to set foot in. For the Christians, I imagine it is a kaleidoscope of many of my way or the highway attributes.

Only thing else I can think of, at the moment, is Isaiah 27:6

@Weltansicht Isaiah 27:6 is definitely coming, my friend. I believe that prophecy. Isaiah 9 and 53 as well. They all really "click" together

@eschatologyguy the Isaiah 27:6 became a reality to me one day long ago. I was on a Jewish chat group ~ JewishCafe ~ and I was yakking with an MFA official from Israel, some ladies from Chile, a lady that looked like young Golda Meir from South Africa, some Canuck guys, an Australian, A New Zealander, some Russians, a Brit, a Naples Italy opera singer, and a Romanian. I was the only American 'Rutabaga'

I thought some more on your 'smiting of Aug 6 70 AD' . There's a story about Napoleon Bonaparte walking by a synagogue and hearing the people wailing.

[mayimachronim.com]

also my nemesis Wikipedia has a article: [en.wikipedia.org]

Thanks. Most of that I am and have been aware. Where in the Bible does he hand Lucifer/Satan reign? What I am looking for is scriptural verses that clearly show this action.

Howdy @toronto_Georgia,

I don't think God handed over Earth to Satan. Adam and Eve did.

God gives dominion of the Earth to Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:28 but they forfeited that dominion when they obeyed Satan rather than God,

I think the key to understanding this is in Romans 6:14.

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

So when Adam obeyed Satan he became the slave of Satan and the Earth came under Satan's domination.

@timon_phocas OK. This travesty of this beautiful earth mystifies me. This helps. It seems Satan was there from the start, as the serpent with the apple, and Cain's murder of his brother, and so on... ad infinitum.

I think satanists could well claim that God's creation had a flaw right from the get go.

How does one explain this? I know there was a revolt by 1/3 of the angels and they're being caste down. Having clarity on all of this is important I think, or is that just me?

@toronto_Georgia Much of Scripture is not intelligible to me, and I have noted some controversy among scholars as well. At least one speculated that good could not exist without evil. I have had versions of this discussion with a few theological scholars and although beyond me, my tentative conclusion is that God has given his Word in Scripture for best effect to bring us to Him of our own free will, and provides both the carrot and the stick. I am uncertain of the role of the fallen angels in God's plan, however am convinced that it IS part of His plan, in which time as we understand it does not exist, so God compared to us, has complete omniscience - access to the whole picture at once.

"Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8 ESV

1 "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Rev 20:1-6

Howdy @toronto_Georgia,

Look at how God is portrayed in the vision of Isaiah (chapter 6). He didn't even see the Lord, just His train and yet Isaiah was undone, seeing the majesty and purity of the LORD.

I've never read about a path of repentance for angels. I think it's because if you've seen the LORD as He really is and rebell anyway there is no repentance possible

@TimTuolomne That is true, but has yet to come. Soon it appears, but not yet.

@TimTuolomne, @timon_phocas Timon, I agree with you completely.

@toronto_Georgia It seems to me that Scripture is clear that we are here in this difficult place to be refined by hardship into sufficiently humbled and sentient beings - only by God; not by our own ability, to be redeemed by Christ for our accepting Him. So our hardship is not by accident. I sense a role for the Accuser in that process.

@TimTuolomne Boy if I get any more humble it will be interesting. The longer I live the more I am humbled, but I think usually in a good way. I suspect and have seen so often the refiner's fire both takes its toll and delivers wonderful blessings. Also, without the refiner's fire I doubt many could withstand these times.

Elaborate, if you don't mind, on your statement "a role for the Accuser in that process."

@toronto_Georgia I put it that way, because Scripture is not clear to me, and Scripture, not my opinion, is the only thing I trust. The Accuser is described as evil; a many translated word that I have come to understand more as something we should not do, and not necessarily something so mystical. Clearly our hardship is at this fallen angel's hands, and just as clearly, Romans 8:28, God uses all things for good.

@TimTuolomne Scripture and all its mysteries is often difficult to understand and, as we get older, we are often able to get new understandings from things we thought we understood the first time. It is our understanding that is ever evolving. Ok now I understand who you were referring to with the label "Accuser". I also find the longer I live the more quickly I upbraid myself when tempted to judge anyone at all, for we have never walked in their shoes. Again further humbling

@toronto_Georgia @TimTuolomne @timon_phocas I am humbly respectfully trying to follow your discourses on this thread and your personal relationship with G-D is your business or path, and that is fine with me. I am just trying to share a little bit of what I understand, politely.

G-D created good AND evil. Isaiah 45:7 In essence, the history of the world of mankind is good & evil vs G-D.

Lucifer was created perfect according to Scripture Ezekiel 28:15 so running around creation has its pitfalls, not guarding the Throne it would seem.

Satan is just a title, like prosecuting attorney, although some have ambiguities with the devil, but there are many devils.

There's a tradition about Samael and causing all the problems, like being the guardian angel along with Lilith of the Philistines/Palestinians. You would have to reference Rabbi Glazerson on YT about Torah Codes for that stuff. My nemesis Wikipedia has a page on Samael
[en.wikipedia.org]

My Rabbi Tzadok, he makes mention of the 'fallen angels' as on a divine mission, doing the Will of G-D as commanded, not as free will rebellion. He's doing a FB class tonight, and will have it on YT soon afterwords. It's about all of this topic.

Monday night, December 6, at 8 p.m. EST, a new Torah/Kabbalah lesson with R. Ariel B. Tzadok of the KosherTorah School
Lesson 10 – Werewolves, Vampires, Ghosts, Spirits, and Demons.
According to classical Torah sources, all these things really do exist.
But what exactly is the nature of these things?
Are they parts of the occult, or parts of the greater natural order, that we do not understand.
Torah makes it very clear that despite of our arrogant beliefs to the opposite,
we are not on the highest rung of the food chain for intelligent life here on Earth.
This class will discuss the actual nature of what we call “evil entities.”
We will identity their reality, and what this means, we will then proceed to understand their nature,
and the nature of their relationship to us human beings.
Many people have encounters and experiences of all kinds, this class will endeavor to address these issues.
We will also bring this subject into present relevance with a discussion of so-called alien abductions.
This is Lesson #10 in our Kabbalah 101+ Beyond the Basics series
(This is not your rabbi’s Kabbalah).
Shine some light in these dark times.
Please share this message.
I offer this lesson free of charge to the general public.
All I ask in return that if you find this and my other lessons to be of any personal value to yourself, please express your appreciation with an appropriate gift to the KosherTorah School.
Please make your offering here: [paypal.me]
Want to be in touch? Email me at: arieltzadok@gmail.com
Thank you again for your support.
Enjoy the lesson.

@Weltansicht I am grateful for your clearly more learned understanding of Scripture.

And if I understood correctly, my understanding of Scripture and that you mentioned about Rabbi Tzadok are not incompatible.

Gods blessings on you sir.

@TimTuolomne To you as well Sir! May your path be rewarding, righteous and interesting. Truth is the knowledge of G-D. Understanding is the wisdom of those who seek G-D. May you become a man of understanding.