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Won't they be on the same page as Hitler and even the Antichrist in their contempt and loathing for Israel? Won't the coming King - who will be sitting on the very Jewish throne of David - respond with "I never knew you. Depart from Me"?

eschatologyguy 9 Feb 28
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Deut Chapter 32

1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; and let the earth hear the words of my mouth. 2 May my teaching drop as the rain, my speech distil as the dew, as the gentle rain upon the tender grass, and as the showers upon the herb. 3 For I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Ascribe greatness to our God! 4 "The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are no longer his children because of their blemish; they are a perverse and crooked generation. 6 Do you thus requite the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you? 7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you. 8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. 10 "He found him in a desert land, and in the howling waste of the wilderness; he encircled him, he cared for him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. 11 Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, that flutters over its young, spreading out its wings, catching them, bearing them on its pinions, 12 the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no foreign god with him. 13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, and he ate the produce of the field; and he made him suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock. 14 Curds from the herd, and milk from the flock, with fat of lambs and rams, herds of Bashan and goats, with the finest of the wheat--and of the blood of the grape you drank wine. 15 "But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked; you waxed fat, you grew thick, you became sleek; then he forsook God who made him, and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation. 16 They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominable practices they provoked him to anger. 17 They sacrificed to demons which were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come in of late, whom your fathers had never dreaded. 18 You were unmindful of the Rock that begot you, and you forgot the God who gave you birth. 19 "The LORD saw it, and spurned them, because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters. 20 And he said, 'I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end will be, for they are a perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness. 21 They have stirred me to jealousy with what is no god; they have provoked me with their idols. So I will stir them to jealousy with those who are no people; I will provoke them with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 "'And I will heap evils upon them; I will spend my arrows upon them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured with burning heat and poisonous pestilence; and I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with venom of crawling things of the dust. 25 In the open the sword shall bereave, and in the chambers shall be terror, destroying both young man and virgin, the sucking child with the man of gray hairs. 26 I would have said, "I will scatter them afar, I will make the remembrance of them cease from among men," 27 had I not feared provocation by the enemy, lest their adversaries should judge amiss, lest they should say, "Our hand is triumphant, the LORD has not wrought all this."' 28 "For they are a nation void of counsel, and there is no understanding in them. 29 If they were wise, they would understand this, they would discern their latter end! 30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had given them up? 31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. 32 For their vine comes from the vine of Sodom, and from the fields of Gomorrah; their grapes are grapes of poison, their clusters are bitter; 33 their wine is the poison of serpents, and the cruel venom of asps. 34 "Is not this laid up in store with me, sealed up in my treasuries? 35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly. 36 For the LORD will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone, and there is none remaining, bond or free. 37 Then he will say, 'Where are their gods, the rock in which they took refuge, 38 who ate the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise up and help you, let them be your protection! 39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and swear, As I live for ever, 41 if I whet my glittering sword, and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries, and will requite those who hate me. 42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh--with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.' 43 "Praise his people, O you nations; for he avenges the blood of his servants, and takes vengeance on his adversaries, and makes expiation for the land of his people."

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Avoid the evil thoughts that roll Like waters o'er the heedless soul; Nor let the foe occasion find Our souls in slavery to bind. In prayer together let us fall, And cry for mercy, one and all, And weep before the Judge's feet, And his avenging wrath entreat. --Unknown

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Frankly, I don't know any Christians like this, who would in any way promote any anti-semitic view or mistreatment of Isralies such as you suggest. Do you have any specific examples? Just wondering.

Haven't you read some of the writings of 3rd century onwards "Church fathers"? You know, the "braying of donkies" bit? The "odious people" bit? I've had discussions with replacement theology adherents in my neck of the woods, and Israel has become a non-entity to them. They are setting themselves up for unmitigated disaster.

@eschatologyguy I've read a fair amount of the writings of the Church Fathers in the past and don't recall such statements, but that doesn't mean there weren't any, of course. I would like to see the citations, though, for future reference. I don't doubt there were a few such bad apples here and there.

At any rate, I thought you were speaking of current Christians, which you seem to have in mind with your reference to "replacement theology," a term I have only ever heard used in a disparaging way by critics of Covenant Theology, none of whom have ever used the term of themselves, at least not to my knowledge. I hold to a Baptist view of Covenant Theology myself (as an Historic Premillennialist, by the way), and I certainly would never refer to it as "replacement theology." I also have never heard or seen anything approaching animosity toward the Jewish people or the state of Israel among any I have known. I have heard many state that they see no further role for national Israel in God's future plan (although I am certainly open to such a role myself), but such a view would in no way necessitate or lead to "contempt and loathing for Israelis."

@KeithThroop it is on the increase.

@eschatologyguy I'm listening to President Trump's CPAC speech right now. I'll try to watch the video later.

@KeithThroop Saint Augustine talks of the story of the blessing going to Jacob instead of Esau as an allegory for Christianity replacing Judaism as God's firstborn

@cepstralspike and by doing so he put all of God's promises and prophecies relating to His chosen people - their being scattered for rejecting His Son, their being gathered back to the land and would no longer be uprooted from that land, their coming final chastisement and punishment that will engulf the whole world, and their coming reconciliation with God - to non-effect.

@cepstralspike I would not be at all surprised to hear that, although, again, I would very much appreciate a citation. I would only observe that such a view would not be what people appear to mean today when they speak of "replacement theology," although I admit that I'm struggling to find uniformity in the use of the charge. I mean, surely any orthodox Christian would believe that the Old Covenant has been abrogated with the inauguration of the New Covenant and that the promises of Judaism have been fulfilled in Christ and in what we now know as Christianity. But this is not really replacing Judaism so much as fulfilling the purpose of Judaism, so to speak. In any case, Augustine does not really represent the current position I was speaking about above, and I am not currently aware of any that would use so bad an analogy as he used.

@KeithThroop

Dominica II in Quadragesima ~ Semiduplex I. classis
 Ad Matutinum  02-28-2021

Reading 4.:  From the Book against Lying written by Saint Augustine, Bishop 

Ch. ix, tom. 4 If we consider faithfully and carefully what it was that Jacob did by the advice of his mother, and wherein he seems to have deceived his father, it will appear that (it has an aspect in which) it is not a lie, but an allegory. If we denounce this (its mystic sense) as a lie, then must we also give the name of lies to even all parable, and to every figure devised to set forth the nature of anything, which is not to be taken in its literal sense, but in which one thing is to be understood under the name of another. And this be far from us. Whoso should do this, would bring the charge of falsehood against very many figures of speech, including that one called metaphor (in which a word is transferred from that meaning which belongs to it, to some other) to which would, by such reasoning, be given the name of a lie

Reading 5.:  The deep meaning is given; but what is considered is the lie because men do not understand the way in which that significatio, which is a trut, is set forth but the falsehood is plainly expresse, and believed. That we may understand this more plainly by taking some points in illustratio, consider with me what Jacob did. It is certain that he covered his limbs with the skins of goats. If we consider his object in point of fac, we shall find that it was to li, because he did this that he might be thought to be he who he was not. But if we consider this his deed in that deep typical sense which it undoubtedly possesse, we find that by the goat-skins are represented sin, and by him who covered himself therewith Him Who bore not His own sin, but the sins of others.

Reading 6.:  It is impossible to apply the term a "lie" to that mystic aspect of this transaction in which it was true and such an aspect there i, not only in the act, but in the words. When Isaac said to Jacob.: "Who art tho, my son" and Jacob answered.: “I am Esa, your first-bornâ€, if we take this in its sense relative to the two brother, it will be apparent that it was a lie. I, howeve, we look at it relatively to that for the sake of which these words and deeds were written dow, we shall see that Christ is here signified in His mystic bod, the Church. Concerning he, (the younger covenan,) He says (to them of the older covenant).: "Ye shall see Abraha, and Isaa, and Jaco, and all the Prophets in the kingdom of Go, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the eas, and from the wes, and from the nort, and from the sout, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. An, behol, there are last which shall be firs, and there are first which shall be last." Thus did the younger take away the title and inheritance from the elde, and acquire it to himself.

@cepstralspike Thanks for that citation. 🙂 I'm reminded of how Augustine is such a mixed bag, with some good things in it but also a lot of bad things. I have to say that I have never been a fan of his allegorical approach to interpretation, and this citation reminds me why. I think he is reading things into the account of Jacob and Esau that are not there. However, his basic view that the New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant, and with it his notion that the Church now represents the people of God on earth, is correct. That isn't to say, from my perspective at least, that God does not still have a plan for the Jewish people as an ethnic group in the future. His plan for now is that the Jewish people receive Christ as their Lord and Savior and become a part of the Church, which is the same plan He has for everyone else.

@KeithThroop Shunning allegorical interpretation undermines full understanding with ZECHARIAH, EZEKIEL, and THE APOCALYPSE to name only 3. I suspect there are others. Many of us adopt these things because of who adopted them before us. I don't accept Calvin's 'Scripture Only' proclamation. I don't think more than a handful of great thinkers who lived before him accepted the underlying principle either. Consequently, I am very cautious about second guessing Church Fathers. I think it is interesting to consider that Jacob lied to his father before the Mosaic Law forbad lying. So, was lying always a sin prior to the Decalogue? I don't think so.

@eschatologyguy "by doing so he put all of God's promises and prophecies relating to His chosen people" I can't tell from this who the pronoun "he" refers to.

@cepstralspike you were talking about Augustine misapplying the passage of Jacob snatching his father's blessing for Esau. It doesn't apply because of God's promises and prophecies on Israel. And Jacob is not the Church, Jacob is Israel.

@eschatologyguy "It doesn't apply because of God's promises and prophecies on Israel" -- what might that imply for the ten lost tribes of Israel? What might it imply for alleged adherents to Judaism who reject parts of the Mosaic law who condone same-sex marriage, and basically condone homosexual unions as well as casual fornication? What might that imply about adherents the council of Jamnia which demanded rejection of the Nazarene?

@cepstralspike If you read Ezekiel carefully, you will learn that there are no lost tribes. The conscientious among those in the Northern Kingdom trekked South, and those from the South who preferred happy hour trekked North. They had already intermingled, both in the North and South, before the Babylonian captivity. All that theory about missing tribes have sent a lot of people on a wild goose chase.

By the end of Jacob's trouble, a whopping two-thirds of them will be delivered to the sword, but a third will remain. If based on their population today, that woul still be about 3M reconciled survivors (Zech 13:8-9).

Jews who continue to reject God's call through the two witnesses will have Amos 9:10 waiting for them. They will even be delivered to the place of slaughter through a Stephen's-like Harpazo of location, as you can read in Luke 17:34-37. That passage does not depict the Harpazo of the Church. The destination is where vultures gather over dead bodies.

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