Would moving state borders reduce the chance of civil war?
As you know, the US is more politically polarized than ever both as shown by the US map image below. The red/blue shows the net change in voters by county... basically suggesting that states are becoming physically polarized. As such, counties often have more in common with neighboring state's policies than their own. This has lead to a renewed interest in changing state borders to allow counties that feel disenfranchised to join adjacent states. One example are counties in Eastern Oregon and Northern California who are more aligned with the politics of Idaho. A group called Greater Idaho is trying move Idaho's border and has succeeded to get on some local ballots.
Independent of the federal and policy implications, is it better for states to keep polarization local (as is) or to have consolidated counties that create neighboring states with vastly different political views? What could go wrong?
Note: I am considering to help fund the Greater Idaho project and posting this in part to get your advice. Thanks.
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I need a reference for the data in the maps. Vote by county and how the intensity scale for increasing Blue vs Red is calculated
I grew up in rural/northern NY. No longer live there. Am interest in Mr. Moran's analysis and source data.
bigjim2020
Level 2
Nov 24, 2020
0
I don't think so. The polarization is institutional and cultural, so I don't think boundaries really matter too much
Anarcho-whatev
Level 4
Nov 24, 2020
0
Honestly, Eastern Washington would like to jump ship and join that project as well. The light blue tint is from a couple of college towns in each of those counties that could use some greater influence. A good chunk of each of those light blue would be red otherwise.
Malachite
Level 4
Nov 24, 2020
1
The largest red city is Oklahoma City, but you don't want it.
Oklahoma City has a blue hole at the center, and the hole will expand and
consume the city.
The blue patch on the southeast side is the University of Oklahoma.
State university systems may undergo secession. Build Institutes of Technology in rural areas.
STEM departments should secede from universities and form Institutes of Technology.
WHAT THE HELL, IS AMERICA NOW FOLLOWING EUROPE, BORDERS, IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, ARE YOU FOR REAL?! JUST AS BAD AS AUSTRALIA NOW, CLOSING BLOODY BORDERS WHEN WE'RE IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY!!!
This is what happens when stupid countries take in foreign outsiders who fully refuse to be a patriot to said country that took them in, they still hold their ancestor's country beliefs.
As for America, a once proud strong nation until the UN's interference into the Democrat Party, have made you all weak kneed.
Trump was and is the only one standing against them, and trying to bring back the jobs, the independance, the strength, the Liberty, the power America ONCE HAD, and many across the world like here in Australia were also proud of America for how they conducted themselves!!!
Australia always followed America, and still would have if President Trump got his well deserved future four years, and well deserved after all the hard work he put in, for you the people!!
Are the people in every country all over the world the only ones seeing the great good President Trump has done, if so, then I'd advise people to read all about the great advantages he's put in place, instead of listening to fake hoax media that have invested interests to make President Trump look bad!!!
Civil war, just great, so you all fall into the trap orchestrated by the United Nations by pitting one against the other, people made to be angry and like rabid dogs turn on each other!!
Between the LBGQT lot, the men who want to be women and women who want to be men, and men can have babies, and teenagers screaming eat your babies, and the BLM movement, etc, no one has caught on yet who put that into their heads, the UN, with a little help from way back in the sixties when they invented, "THE PILL" the hormone that changes humanity, so whatever is born after that falls into what they had in mind all along, WELCOME TO YOUR NEW WORLD ORDER, THE GREAT RESET!!!
Instead of fighting in the Streets, and amongst one another, sit down and really think about what is coming, that you Will Not be able to change, as it will be way too late then!!! Trump forever or we're all done for!!!
I wish everyone well.
WisdomWarrior9
Level 6
Nov 21, 2020
3
You are correct!
I guess an analog in Australia would be adjusting Victoria and S. Australia's border. Regarding societal changes, I have the feeling that it's a bit like people eating sugary food... there's a lot of short term energy that could easily burn out once realize that there is less sustenance to it. Then again, a lot of damage could happen when people are on a sugar high.
@Admin The fact is, these border closures in the States of Australia, are all Left controlled. And the worst one of all which appears very Communist and is a little too friendly with China is, Victoria, where 800 died from Covid, or so they say, and the only State that locked down the whole State until the people there took notice of what I said, and stopped getting tested which I kept saying was spreading it, then, within a matter off days, no new cases. The Premier of that State many say is very much like Hitler in his domination and control.
I wish you well.
How about the simple answer!!!!
Let us get back to a Constitutional Government, stop the "give-aways" (welfare) and get back to the idea that if you want to eat, WORK!!!!!
That idea worked for about 150 years, until the "Socialist" (AKA, FDR) got into power!!!!
Serg97
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
3
Ever try to take candy away from a baby? I've heard it leads to trouble.
So the highest middle class in history of the USA under FDRs plan is worse than the failing middle class of Reaganomics? Funny how the "socialist" had more people employee and making more money than anyone in US history. Would appear "socialism" is the best way to employee people and make people rich if u look at US history. The downfall started in 1980 once the New Deal was traded for trickled down BS lies that only sends wealth to the top.
The villain is the person that hooked the baby on candy.
The O'Reilly & Feirstein book "Old School" discusses how they grew up unspoiled by candy.
I think it is time to consider dividing an already completely divided country up into two new countries: one that supports socialism or democratic socialism that support things like the Green New Deal and mandatory mask and vaccine compliance and a country that still values the rights of the individual above all else.
Andyman
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
3
I personally wish to keep the country together and lean toward giving more control to the states. Pendulums swing both ways...
Actually no. What I believe needs to happen is the Congress to stop limiting the number of representatives to 423 and reducing the amount of people per representative to something a bit more sane like oh 500K per representative. Instead of the current number that has it at over 750k. That would allow better spread of the voters voice and while it could increase the current division in the US it might not as people will be able to have more ownership of their seat in the house.
That and folks need to hold government accountable. Redoing borders is not going to stop those who have an agenda from finding a way of pushing it forward. Only holding them to the account of law and making the issue not an option will aid in a return to a more sane society.
M_MarinoDC
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
2
How about you gradually expand Idaho's border west and southwest, slowly but surely pushing everything in your way into the Pacific.
coalburned
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
3
Would love to see a test case somewhere to see how it goes. There is a huge long-term win for Idaho if can get to an ocean port.
Funny but sounds good.
@Admin Enough west coast LIBS, that ruined THEIR areas are moving to Idaho to ruin it also!!!
The LIBS don't leave THEIR ideas behind, only the messes THEY have made!!!!!!
I,ve lived in Idaho, I know, and now the same thing is happening where I now live!!!
Moving borders, or yourself, will not change things!!! Eliminating the cause is the answer!!!
I'm not a fan of people moving goalposts to guarantee the results they want. Natives of states like Tennessee and Texas and Idaho and many others have a general distaste for transplants from California that ruined their own state and attempt to spread their disease to another. I can't say I blame them.
JobyOneKenobi
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
6
Changing the state configurations requires and act of their legislatures and no politician wants to relinquish control and lose tax money. For instance Parts of Eastern and Southern Oregon would like to succeed from Oregon and form their own states. Oregon is controlled by the big cities in the Willamette Valley and they will never give up control without a physical fight. So, in the end, splitting states without violence is next to impossible.
lawrenceblair
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
5
Right. It is the same thing here in Illinois, where occasionally there is proposed legislation to force the northeast corner of the state -- Chicago and the surrounding area -- to form a new state. But it will never happen because the majority of the states' population is there, and they will never allow the rest of the state to leave and lose even more tax dollars for their liberal policies which have bankrupt the whole state.
@KeithThroop Forming a new state seems harder than moving state lines. Agree that population centers call the shots... until shots are fired.
@Admin Good point. 
Wouldn't this simply increase the polarity, not decrease it?
TyKC
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
1
Yes, between states but not within states... on a per person basis.
@Admin Oh, I see. Yes, the U.S. has already been divided into districts. But this is only for administrative purposes. Any redistricting in the future will also be for administrative and or population control purposes. Bureaucrats care nothing for the good of the people.
The civil war is rural vs. urban.
In Civil War I, the North was economically stronger than the South.
In Civil War II, Republican cities and states are economically stronger than
Democrat cities and states. Republican territory tends to have less debt/capita
than Democrat territory, less taxes, less crime, and a larger value for exports minus
imports. Moving vans are flowing from blue to red states. The plot quantifies
this, with more plots in [jaymaron.com]
A "blue hole" is a leftist city. The law of blue holes is that blue holes get bluer, until
they end in a blue hole singularity. There are few large red cities, the largest being
Oklahoma City.
The vote shift plot is fascinating. Not only is rural red and cities blue, it's becoming
even more so.
In the age of sail, prosperity required being on a sailing route. Same for the age of rail
and the age of interstate freeways. The modern age is aircraft, which are different from the above
in that they can't make stops along the way. It's all about airports and hubs.
You need an airport but they tend to be in blue holes.
This page [jaymaron.com] shows the largest airports in red territory, such as Salt Lake City, Kansas City, Omaha,
Oklahoma City, Boise, Des Moines, Anchorage, and Tulsa. Montana, N & S Dakota, and Wyoming don't
have a large airport.
The only way to fight blue invasion is to be mobile. We will see an age of land
yachts and temporary cities where freedom of association can be exercised, plus
freedom of disassociation from leftists. We need competition between cities,
and this is a mechanism. In the Stephenson novel Snowcrash, America fractures
into independent burbclaves.
Cities rely on economic focusing of the rural economy, and this can be used to siege them.
The boycott strategy is to favor rural over city. Boycott strategy: [jaymaron.com]
In Game of Thrones there was no need to attack King's Landing. Instead control the farmland.
This is the Fabian Strategy.
The Ayn Rand novel Atlas Shrugged features an "atlas war", a war between the productive
and the parasites.
Missouri Compromise:
The Right plays the game according to the rules. The Left prefers to change the rules, always in a way
that favors them, and never consulting the opposition. The Right has to identify possible rightward rule changes as a deterrent to leftward rules changes. Want statehood for DC and PR? Let's also have statehood for East California, East Oregon, and East Washington. I like the name "Jefferson" that North California proposed. Let's have Trump State. Pack the Senate!
The flagship university of a state is often in a blue hole. We need new universities in rural territory, and they should be Institutes of Technology.
jaymaron
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
7
Also as to Civil War II, the Red regions are the most heavily armed. The gang bangers of Urbania have most of the city weaponry, but I don't see them risking their asses over a political squabble. They KNOW us country folks wouldn't cotten them bringing their ghetto looting selves down to stir up shit.
Love the charts you've put together! The war gaming process is fascinating until the bullets start flying (if it does). I think debt restructuring will be the first big weapon of blue cities...
The only way reality is inforced is through debt. Either the city tackles the debt
(which leftists don't do) or it goes bankrupt. That kicks the attitude out of them.
But up until the point where they go bankrupt they still have attitude.
One of the voting bases of Democrats is public workers, who vote Democrat because Democrats excessively hire public workers. It's vote bribing. Most cities carry ludicrous pension obligations.
Not all public officials can be elected. Too many elections. The officials at
the top should be elected, and then they appoint officials below
them. The quality of their appointments is one of the measures of their quality as a politician.
There should never be a permanent official. There has to be regular elections,
and the same applies to public workers. They shouldn't expect to have the job
permanently because the job is public. In fact, the principle of wealth
redistribution mandates frequent rotation of appointed officials. You collected a government check? Good for you. Now get out of the way and let someone else have it.
In Wisconsin, Governor Scott Walker drained the swamp by firing many public workers.
The public unions fought back with a recall election and Walker won.
We will soon see the collapse of cities, states, and colleges, and that will change the political
landscape.
The plot shows that republican states are stronger than democrat states, and that moving vans are flowing from democrat to republican states.
"Would moving state borders reduce the chance of civil war?"
Doesn't that sound a lot like the "Missouri Compromise".
wolfhnd
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
4
Yes... it's at least a way to respond to unpopular policies.
I am curious how you plan to help fund the Greater Idaho Project. In what way or for what purpose?
IMO - I like the idea generally, but like with - 'gun sanctuaries' that popped up in southern Illinois and some other places, all that does is show the group's willingness to 'retreat' in my opinion. Gerrymandering is already a huge problem in some places.
I wish we could just divide the country in half EAST/WEST but wherever you go, they will invade. As soon as you identify yourself as a target, they will attack you.
I read an article a few years ago about New Hampshire being the least diverse area in the country and in response to this article, a lot of people commenting on the topic mentioned something along the lines of, 'we need to do something about that.' There are no safe spaces FROM the Left.
RAZE
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
4
My parents taught me that if you're going to do something, never do it half-assed. From what it looks like, the Greater Idaho Project could use a little more professionalism and organization. I'm rooting for the underdogs... the people living in the rural areas who don't agree with Portland's politics. The recent decriminalization of hard drugs is one example of a policy which is better suited first for an urban area but applied state wide.
But you cannot fear these leftists. They want you to be anxious and fearful. I would never act that way. These leftists are just arrogant, sarcastic, self serving sociopathic creatures and should be treated accordingly if they mistreat you.
Northern California has always resented the dominance of the urban areas. They tried to secede from California and form the State of Jefferson. They blockaded roads with bonfires and armed men to jumpstart the movement. Unfortunately, they chose the wrong date to do so. It was December 6th, 1941.
timon_phocas
Level 9
Nov 21, 2020
5
For reasons i hope to explain elsewhere I believe that a state should ideally have a surface equal to countries like Ireland, Denmark, Switzerland or the Netherlands. This is between forty- and seventy-thousand square kilometers of fertile and inhabitable ground. This would mean that the USA should redivide the country into between 140 and 240 states. It is obvious that the current borders are artificial. E.G. If we look at the time zone in Indiana we see that near Chicago it does not match the border of the state. I can imagine that people living in north west Indiana are quite happy to not be under Illinois/Chicago rule, yet have the same timezone. I suggest to create around 150 states.
I don't think that a civil war can be avoided by changing administrative borders. The argument for starting the civil war of 1861 was that the newly elected president didn't accept the secession of the southern states. So he sent the federal army which happened to win. There was no legal reason for Lincoln to not accept it, it was just a matter of power. The forces that keep any federation or any oversized country together, stem basically from inertia due the habit of federal / central government institutions to keep clinging to power.
Corjova
Level 6
Nov 21, 2020
6
Maybe the continent should cease seeking Equality it will never come to fruition just remember "All Animals are Equal....Some Animals are more Equal than Others"
that will Never Change!
jpnese
Level 6
Nov 21, 2020
3
Equality is so often defined monetarily instead of fulfillment of potential.
we just had “greater Idaho” initiatives fail at the ballot here in southern Oregon. Im all for it. Southern Oregon consistently gets the shaft in state spending on education, safety, and roads. ever since measure 5 passed in the 90’s Oregon does not spend its money where it is generated leaving our rural schools to rot while Portland and Salem spend at alarming rates. Our Governor does zero for us. shevwont’t even drive south of Eugene and constantly derides us as hicks and rubes. our lockdown policies reflect this too where isolated rural counties with 1 or 2 cases where people live very distanced lives anyway being forced to shut down with the rest of the state because our metrics have to be multiplied to x per 100k. 2 people infected people in 1 household can shut a school system down in a county of 20k because thats now 10 cases per 100k (multiply by 5).
many of us would love to be Idaho without moving. our people and our culture here is far more consistent and congruous with Idaho politics. No one here wants to be associated with Portland, when we travel people look at us like a bunch of violent socialist activists when we say we are from oregon before explaining... Not Portland.
RobD1
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
5
Thanks for the feedback. From what I've seen from the "greater Idaho" movement, they are not well organized and are basically doing it as volunteers.
@Admin they were very unorganized, no signs or much to speak of. The lockdowns really hampered signature gathering in counties where it didn't make the ballot and campaigning was nonexistent. still the movement pulled 40% in the counties that it made the ballot on. The forest Fires really dampened enthusiasm in southern Oregon for all things this year.
However The “State of Jefferson” movement has been alive here since the 50’s. Greater Idaho is kind of a more realistic compromise in which many envision joining a system that represents our values being more realistic than creating a new state out of whole cloth. A more focussed conservative effort is in order here especially with the idea of Dems adding other states. realigning west coast power structures to more accurately indicate the electorate should be strategically considered.
Let's go full on retard but keep the conceptual ideas like the founders envisioned.
Using identity principles to take us to the maximum divisibility . Every individual is their own country.
Sovereign countries free to consensually establish "treaties" with other countries (individuals) and contractually establish "trade agreements" with each other for goods and services.
You could even rename the land mass / collective as the United Individuals of America.
Civil war would be eliminated. Real war would be everywhere instead.
cRaZyTMG
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
2
What do you do with states that are having mass exodus? I know here that can't build housing fast enough as we are having a huge influx of people from other states. Mostly northern states it seems. How is this going to effect all these states? This may also be an indicator of what you are talking about, but rather than wait for lines to be redrawn they are simply relocating?
Lexpd1145
Level 7
Nov 21, 2020
1
relocating to bring their idiotic ideologies to the new territory?
California => TX/TN is a good example of exodus but it does require people to physically move. Rural people are more connected to their land than condo dwellers.
That is a bad, bad, bad, BAD, BAD idea. Like, REALLY bad. Putting aside that it would foment attitudes towards getting away from learning how to be empathetic and to resolve your issues by engaging one another in a good faith effort; showing the people that such extreme changes can be so easily done will only change their perception of what a country is, and what laws are as things that can be changed according to their whims. I personally, think that they should be--ironically enough; but it won't work for a population as immature as America's. Your problems can be solved. You are just all being childish and pedantic about it, and everybody refuses to make an effort to learn how to deal with one another by rejecting the mere idea that you may be wrong and/or just need to mature a little. Because you are all such civilized, and successful big boys and girls in your mind even though you are about to utterly destroy all of your ancestor's legacy forever.
I'm sorry if it sounds tough, but nobody else will say it. It needs to be said. Even being said clearly and in your face, still won't be taken into consideration. Let alone all dressed up in strawberries, rainbows, unicorns and my cute face. The US is a country of big old children. It's time to mature, and that means to learn what virtue is actually about: sacrificing your personal gain for others when the situation will result in a bigger net advantage for both. It's just like with Capitalism against Communism. but you people are blind to anything that's not all bling-bling shiny. I better stop my rant here, I got emotional fuel to go on forever about this...
A1fredo
Level 8
Nov 21, 2020
3
Civil WaR is more exciting and better for the ratings !! but first burn down the media institutions then let the scramble begin ......
@jpnese You won't be quite as eager if you're the one who's fingers are being cut off little by little in order to force you to say something for the camera to humiliate you publicly, while pulling your hair back to put out their smokes in your eye. I'm holding back out of respect to the site, but you don't know what it's like to be in such a situation where you don't have any power anymore and are in completely control of others to use as they see fit.
Have you ever been confronted by gangsters, by street thugs in ghettos and other places? The radical left runs the US mainstream media. They create the perverted reality through their newspapers and television. The law and truth is whatever they say it is. Try having a conversation with Trump haters. It would be great if we could talk but believe me the left doesn't care what goodness you have.
I grew up in a dangerous neighborhood in a borough of NY City. I first served in the USMC 1968 and have a familiarity with violence that the majority do not have. I didn't think things in America woud turn out like this. For the radical left the ends justify the means. One of the first rules of Communists is to control the media.
Do you know that the anarchists and Communists torture murdered 5,700 Catholic priests in Spain 1936-1939. Check out what happened to Vendee Catholics in France in the 1790s. Are USA leftists capable of committing atrocities? They sure are!
@Creaghsully I live in Mexico, where we find people in the dirt every week because of the cartels, but I do find them being better people than our police. I am very familiar with the dark side. Hell, I've witness some of those allegedly non-existent Qanon guys' "rituals" from those craxy totally not real conspiracy theories. And yeah, I do think we are all capable of atrocities. I'm not sure what your point is though. Are you pro or against? Yay or nay? Or what?
ALFREDO:
First of all not all humans are capable of committing atrocities. Those that do that evil stuff are a minority but they are the ones that often gain power. We have white collar sociopaths all over America. They hate those who do not think like them.
I am for Constitutionl government. I am against our getting involved in endless wars. It is Democrats who got us into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia-Kosovo, and Obama gave us 3 x the number of deaths that Bush gave us in Afghanistan. He gave us the Arab Spring or the NATO bombings. He gave us Syria, the Rise of ISIS. Obama was responsible for over 940 targeted assassinations whereas Bush Jr some 54.
I came from a blue collar family. My mother's father died in a Pennsylvania coal mine. My father's father was cheated out of his farm which was eventually turned into suburbs.
I am against these Democrats as they are the greatest hypocrites in my lifetime. I have seen bad cops but I have seen far more that are all right. I would bet that 90% of the Democrats of the city council members in America like Minneapolis, Seattle, and many more came from nicey nicey suburban homes or nice apartments. Mommy and daddy were radicals or Democrats only and spoiled their kids.
These people embrace Communism which means they are historically ignorant. But they don't care. They like to have power over people and they HATE anyone who disagrees with them.
These Democrats have no idea of how you lived in Mexico. They will tell you they care but the reality is that they don't. They do nothing that works. They just make sure that the voting population gets their welfare checks. I am all for welfare when it is justified. Take NY City. The mayor there has wasted billions, and his wife running programs has made a fortune and given a fortune in money to the people she hires.
I spent my youth dodging blacks in the neighborhoods near me and where I worked. I have many black friends who like me want nothing to do with the sociopaths.
These Democrats will turn America especially the cities into the kind of lawless environment you grew up in.
I remember the fall of Vietnam and the tens of thousands of Vietnamese escaping in boats.
I could go on. These Democrats are radicals. This reptile Ocasio-Cortez wants to draw up a list of Trump supporters. Pol Pot did that in Cambodia.
Just follow history.
I am 70. The leftists control over 90% of the mainstream media. With them in power we will be hit with endless rules and regulations. They will institute a massive surveillence state. Already on the New York Thruway and Pennsylvania Turnpike in the eastern USA there are sensors on the sides of these roads recording license plates and speeds and destinations. You can see the devices and there is a pulse of light when you pass them. They are not there for our good.
@Creaghsully Yeah, other than I think that we are all capable of atrocities, I actually do agree with absolutely everything you're saying. The left must not win or the whole world is fucked. I'm right there with you.
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