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Are camgirls a net benefit or harm to society?

Pay-per-minute or tip-based erotic cam shows have become a multi-billion dollar industry in the last 20 years with over 60,000 independent or studio models (note: about 30% are men/trans) currently employed worldwide. While top models make $25,000 or more per month, most make less than $1,000 depending on hours and their relative sex appeal (meritocracy). The camgirl business is also up 25% with many people forced home due to Covid restrictions and having time, and other things, on their hands.

While there are financial and safety benefits for cam models, the work is emotionally demanding and has downsides for both the models and society at large. What do you think?

The cam industry is...

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Admin 8 July 7
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9

Virtual prostitution? Yeah, I’m sure someone was posting this same pearl-clutching question in the 1950’s when Playboy magazine debuted.

This is an age where prostitution is valourized. Vancouver actually has a monument “honouring” prostitutes, who are now given the stigma-free title of “sex trade workers.” So I’d say regardless of any downside, and there are plenty, digital sex is at least much safer than street soliciting and physical contact.

And for me the poll smacks of sticking your nose in someone’s business. If people wish to engage in virtual prostitution form the privacy of their own homes, that’s their decision.

(The monument, below, by the way is a 15 foot high antique street pole topped with a large red light)

GeeMac Level 8 July 7, 2020

I think that monument is very cool! 🙂

The question was about is it valuable to society. It wasn't: should we make it illegal. It was asking if it had any value to society. The fact that people are reacting like a toddler having their wubbie taken away says quite a lot about the addiction to consequence and value free sex.

@ThomasinaPaine I’m not even sure if value is a worthwhile question. We could make an argument for or against anything: eating meat, welfare, video games. Outlawing drugs has failed to achieved much. In a free society — within reason — people get to decide for themselves, even when they choose to engage in harmful behaviour.

@ThomasinaPaine
“The question was about is it valuable to society. It wasn't:”
Whether or not it is an Addiction or should be viewed as such.

@Bay0Wulf Whether or not it is an addiction, whether or not it leads to sex trafficking--both with adequate research to say "yes", etc There is no net value to society. Individuals get their rocks off so it has value to the individual who masturbated but not enough value that he doesn't continue to need an image versus his own imagination.

[antipornography.org]

@ThomasinaPaine
So your answer is ... after everything ... “a net harm to society”.
Its good to live in a World where one may have an opinion ... no?

Still you associate it with “Addiction” and use several sources that validate your opinion to support your contention. You realize that makes it a pretty fallible argument as I could probably go out and dig up lots of contrary sources.

Or, I could simply point to thousands of “Women’s Books” like Harlequin Romance, Silhouette, Rosemary Rogers and ... even Playgirl and Cosmopolitan and wonder if their popularity wasn’t founded in pornography as well?

@Bay0Wulf I associate it with addiction for some, lack of economic choice for women (high inflation, changing standards of living, stagnant wages, etc), increasing internet usage and lack of outdoor appreciation, selfishness versus selflessness, inability to define value in any other terms than monetary, etc.

Yes. I think it adds no net value to society. I will agree that individuals may find some instant gratification from it.

6

I think we should have another poll: Why does it bother you that other people won't support your addiction?

Have sex with prostitutes. Watch rape porn. Beat off on a sex doll. It is your life and your money.

Just don't expect people to support your addiction or approve of it.

I totally agree @ThomasinaPaine - Indulge in your addiction, but don’t cry “stigma” when people are repulsed by what you are doing. If you are into prostitution, porn or drugs, that’s your decision; but own it, and don’t expect everyone else to sign-on.

6

I think it's bad for men and the women. The men get a false sense of what woman are really like. The girls (who I don't feel bad for) have no skills, and age out of this.

@scotirishviet I totally agree. I don't see how this is good for society at all.

I think it's bad all around. To substitute the passion that only exists when two people are together in the dark, naked and full of desire with a computer screen and your hand is just a sad indictment of modern society.

6

It is funny how we all jump up and down protecting freedom of speech, but god-forbid you do something in private that affects no one else but you and the supplier.

The fundamental question remains... who gives you the right to say what other people do?

Do they then have a right to tell you what you are to do or not?

Yet the same people who here who call out Marxist for telling them how to live their lives are the people telling others what they can and cannot do.

Any one able to spell hypocrite?

Hanno Level 8 July 7, 2020

Civil rights is not the topic under discussion. No one here is telling others how how they must live.
@Admin posed the question: "Are camgirls a net benefit or harm to society?"
Since, the internet brings porn of every variety into virtually every home, young unsupervised children are exposed to it. (See my comment below on how porn adversely effects children) This is much more than something you do "in private that affects no one else but you and the supplier." You have the right to indulge your appetite for virtual sex. This does not change the reality that camgirls are harmful to society.

To quote Paul "I may do all things but not all things are good for me." The question was about the benefits to society not whether social ills should be made illegal. I am not for drug laws but I wouldn't dare make the argument that heroin was good for individuals or society.

I've read through this entire chain but maybe I missed the comment who believes it should be made illegal.

People are allowed to have opinions on an industry and you are allowed to disagree and put money into it. What you aren't going to do, at least not with me, is shame me into supporting you by pretending I'm trying to prevent you from using your own money to jerk off. I'm not. Flog the log all day. Pay or not pay the cam girls. IDGAF.

What I'm saying is that there is no value to society--the question being asked. There isn't. We aren't better for cam girls. In fact, you could say that we are worse for it. Instead of learning how to have healthy relationships with a partner based off of trust, conversation, non-sexual and sexual activities people are wasting their time paying someone to act for them.

6

One of the goals for society at large is to rear and raise the following generations. The long term vision, as idyllicly pictured in the show "Parenthood," is to build a family that can weather the tragedies of life and promote a better future. This future, I believe, is also very fulfilling to the parents that create it. Not getting married, divorce, choosing not to have children, gender dysphoria and confusion, etc... are all things that prevent a would be parent from achieving this long term goal.

Obsessive interest in pornography has been linked to divorce in several studies.

@robblair like the thoughts. Just curious... what’s the deal with pic of Craig Nelson and folks?

@danscott Just a picture for illustration. Grandparents surrounded by their children and grandchildren at a great Thanksgiving feast.

@RobBlair wow. That family has a lot of actors. Are you sure it wasn’t a picture of all that auditioned for the relaunch of Coach?

@danscott - You are taking me off post. I watched much of the show and enjoyed it. That's not the exact image I wanted. There is one where they are sitting down to an outside meal, but thought it sufficed. Hate doing the race thing; It makes us all idiots. But if you prefer, I like this one too -

I look at this one and say Wow-those old people in the middle did all this.

5

Imagine having sex with a woman that adores you. She respects you and will back you up. That’s not a cam girl.

Imagine finding a woman who will actually do those things these days ... they are a rare commodity.

5

As I'm reading the comments I have to say that I am not surprised that the one area where men on the far left and far right find agreement against the horrible hypocrites in the middle--and that is any area where sex is made cheap and/or commodity. All pretend to have some lofty philosophical reason why sex work should be allowed but the truth is they just want a cheap and commitment free way get their nut.

Gentlemen, just say that you don't want anyone to cancel your ability to beat off to choking videos on porn hub and call it a day. Discussing the rights of humans to degrade themselves for money with more eloquence than when discussing a human's right to self-amputate a limb is telltale. You tacitly approve one and would rather not think of the other.

Sounds an awful lot like projection.

@JacksonNought Projection would be if I myself needed to engage in fake relationships. Hitting a bullseye with my comment sounds more accurate.

Look beat for dollars off until your dick falls off. It's your dick and their time. Just don't pretend there's some great moral or philosophical component to the support for this peculiar institution.

@ThomasinaPaine nah, sounds like projection. Or maybe someone chose porn over you and you were forever hurt, or you tried to break into the industry and failed and are jealous? Yeah, no way someone could advocate for equal rights and freedom of privacy and bodily autonomy, no they must all be white knighting to jerk off. No different than saying all Trump supporters are racist, no other reason they'd support him.

@ThomasinaPaine I agree with your sentiments Thomasina. The girls and their clients can do what they want, it has no significance in the greater scheme of things, except transferring money from one to the other.

@JacksonNought When you have to add a word in front of another word you're about to bastardize both. Social justice...sex work. Two concepts that have little to do with either sex or justice.

BTW, if you want to insult me please at least put some effort into it. Yours was the typical ad hominem response that happens whenever someone dares question the need for porn. I know this sounds really unfair to the incels of this world but women don't have to pay for sex.

But if it is any consolation we always have to pay for an oil change.

@JacksonNought, @Thasaidon I disagree. My very good friend operates a nonprofit that helps women who have been sex trafficked regain their lives by offering free therapy, job training, and medical care for the physical side effects of being used in the sex trade. The demand created by cam girls and strippers does correlate to sex work. Each year millions of underage girls are abducted and sold to meet the demand of (mostly) men who are sex addicts. Like most addictions it begins with something recreational and occasional and grows until they do seek out more and more illicit content and activities to fulfill the same drives within the brain that once had harmless cam girl interaction.

I am not going to tell grown adults what they can do with their bodies or money but I'm not going to put blinders on and pretend this is good for young girls and society as a whole.

@ThomasinaPaine I take your point but you have read something into my post that I did not intend.

When I was talking about CamGirls I was talking about women who started a webcam business on their own and of their own free will.

Women and girls who are coerced or forced into such work are in a real sense sex slaves and should be called that whether they work as "cam girls" or prostitutes.

@Thasaidon And I'm discussing capitalism and the theory of supply and demand. There are unintended consequences of laws, agreed? There are also unintended consequences of various industries, as well.

Desserts used to be something at the end of some meals. The industrial age enabled snack foods to go into mass production and lowered the price of sweets. The mass production of sweets is not evil but it made pop and candy so readily available and cheap that people over-indulged and developed a sugar addiction (look it up). The use of pornography and visual stimulation is linked to an increase in sexual demand.

Sex trafficking is an unintended but lucrative consequence of the desire for sex-on-demand (porn, cam girls, strippers, etc)

@ThomasinaPaine I take your point we were talking at cross purposes somewhat but I don't think we disagree by much. I always find your posts very interesting.

@ThomasinaPaine nice use of Shapiro logic there. My "ad hominem" insults are no different than yours, except I am assuming something about just you, and you are making sweeping generalizations about many people. Sure, why bother trying to debate the merits of someone's position when you can just insult them and assume their position isn't genuine and they are just mindless and horny? If you can't see any reason someone would advocate for people's freedoms other than trying to get laid, then I can only assume you've been hanging around the wrong people. It sounds like you are stuck in old gender roles and stereotypes, assuming all men are after sex, women can't do their own oil changes, whatever. Your incel accusation is pretty off base - every incel I have come across is actually against porn, as they are super conservative / traditional and think that women should be pure and virginal and only housewives and mothers, mostly from years of religious indoctrination.

Your friend sounds nice. It is good to have an advocate who helps sex trafficking victims. As I said before, a good way to help is with legalization / regulation. Much like prohibition, trying to ban and criminalize things people want will just lead to underground markets and crime. When you put a stigma and criminal penalties on prostitution, you make it harder for victims to seek help. When you pass laws trying to label escorts as traffickers, you force them to risk their safety. When you have cases like Chrystul Kizer, you punish the victims and not the abusers. I have close friends in the sex work industry, from people who sell pictures to strippers to full on porn actors, and everything in between. They are not victims, there is no shame in it, people can feel empowered by it, and it has nothing to do with past abuse or daddy issues or self loathing. Perhaps you should do more research on people with opposing perspectives. Look up Rebecca Crow and her campaigns for sex work advocacy.

@JacksonNought Against the Man--in Latin, a superior language, the phrase denotes a singular man. So, I assume for you to refer to my comment as ad hominem you are placing my comments upon your own shoulders rather than a generic statement. Not that I'm surprised you waste hours of your life in voyeurism, but its your life and your hours to waste. Unless of course you're doing that whole free thing then you're also wasting hers.

I'll repeat for--what is this--the 5th time (?) that I don't believe in laws. I am discussing the net benefit to society. There is none.

I don't know how many people say "I have tons of friends in the sex industry and they find it empowering"--they say this because they want to believe that is true the same way the six year old knows there is no Santa but goes along with it anyway because they know they'll get more toys that way. Jenna Jameson used to go onto Howard Stern and say how much she loved it how it made her feel empowered blah blah and now she says she was on drugs the whole time and lying.

My friend was in the sex industry before she became an advocate against human trafficking. She said that the self-loathing she experienced made her say to others that it was great especially those thinking about becoming a stripper because it made her feel less alone and less guilty for what she was doing. Why did she feel guilty? Because she was intelligent and it was a waste of that intelligence, because her responses to the men were fake, and because the owners of these clubs aren't women but men who take the bigger portion for themselves.

There are countless women who have left porn, stripping, and sex work who said the same things while they were in it because what the fuck else could they say:

Actually I hate this and it degrades me. I really thought I would make more money than this and now I realize I've been selling myself for not nearly enough to pay my rent?

And that is the truth. Free porn sites, tumblr, etc have made sex work less profitable so they work longer hours, make less money, and feel worse about themselves. I heard one former porn actress talk about how so many women got addicted to painkillers then onto heroin because the anal videos hurt so bad they give them painkillers to get through the scenes smiling. One of the women who works for my friend had to have surgery on her rectum and vagina.

There is no net positive. You say they are making money as if there is no other way in the world to do that with less risk and better pay. Glorify the septic cleaners--I'm sure draining shit for a living is just as empowering and they get paid 8x more on average.

@JacksonNought, @Thasaidon Thank you. I strive to be interesting.

@ThomasinaPaine go ahead and keep making your blanket statements, showing once again, perhaps for the 5th time, your ignorance. Go ahead and make broad assumptions and argue semantics and use petty insults to try and destroy someone's character and attack their motivations. It really says more about you than it does about me. I guess I'll just assume everything you say is a lie as well, you have no friends from the sex industry who experienced trauma, you do not have an advocate friend, you have no real anecdotal evidence, hell you really don't even believe the things you are saying - you just have an axe to grind about the industry for some reason and are vengeful and ranting on the internet about it as a result. See, I can make baseless accusations too, feels great doesn't it?

Sure, I have anecdotal evidence, you have anecdotal evidence, everyone has anecdotal evidence. Yeah, some people who left the industry claimed they lied and were on drugs and really hated it and what have you. I'm sure they did. There are also many people who were super evangelical Christians, but then they left Christianity altogether and attacked how harmful and abusive it was to them. So I guess we can say the sex industry has the same net benefit as Christianity?

Sure, some people get into it for the wrong reason, whether they are on hard times and see no other way to make money, or they thought they'd be making a ton of money and didn't think it through properly. Maybe we should work on a better society that doesn't force people to think they need to go into sex work to avoid being homeless and hungry. But then there are people who genuinely enjoy it, actually have a good living and don't feel degraded in any way, and they aren't lying when they say so. But I guess you will just assume they are lying no matter what because of your bias. I guess there is nothing left to say between us.

@JacksonNought You are so disingenuous. All I see is a tantrum being thrown because I won't support the validity of your hobby.

Anecdotal evidence is a term used when you are making an informal statement versus a court of law or research project. As I am neither researching the subject formally or going into a court room I am explaining that my opinions were formed by hearing countless women discuss what it did to them and their lives.

If you want to have a more formal debate regarding the increasing use of porn and online sex work as it pertains to public health where we actually use studies then I'm game for it. This is not that, however. So, yes, I will use my experience working with women who have come from that industry and my experience dealing with those in recovery from sexual trauma.

Since you wish to pretend I have no friends then here are some more anecdotal accounts from people you do know:

[antipornography.org]

As for the commentary on Christianity--why wouldn't you bring up people's experience with Christianity, Islam, Satanism, Buddhism, Progressivism, etc when discussing the net benefit of each? Only we're not discussing any of those. We're discussing cam girls and online porn.

@ThomasinaPaine I am the disingenuous one? Ha, that's a laugh. First, I never claimed it was my "hobby" nor did I express any investment in porn or the sex industry whatsoever - you are ascribing it to me because, once again, you can't possibly conceive of someone being for right to privacy and bodily autonomy unless they are pathetic horny men trying to get off. You can have whatever opinions you want when it comes to sex work, that is your right, whether I disagree with you or not. And yes, we aren't really talking about laws here, just whether it has a benefit or not, which we also will disagree on.

Where I take issue is in your attempt to attack the character of someone rather than the merit of their argument. Sure, you've tried to present a better case more recently, but your words still reflect your original unflinching claim that all proponents "pretend to have some lofty philosophical reason why sex work should be allowed but the truth is they just want a cheap and commitment free way get their nut" and that proponents should "just say that you don't want anyone to cancel your ability to beat off to choking videos on porn hub and call it a day". Once again, putting yourself above anyone who disagrees with you because they must be disingenuous and really after sexual gratification rather than freedoms. How would you react to using this logic with any other argument? I guess anyone who argues for guns really doesn't care about freedom or self defense, they just have a twisted macho fantasy and want to kill things for fun. I guess anyone who argues against wearing mask doesn't really care about freedom and forced obedience, they just want more people to die from the virus because it brings them joy. I guess anyone who defends a monument or a confederate flag doesn't care about heritage or history, they are really racists and they want the country to validate racism. I guess anyone criticizing the BLM protests isn't really concerned about rioting or looting or any other valid criticism, they simply want black people to die. I guess any organization which doesn't want to insure birth control because of religious reasons doesn't actually care about religious freedom, they just want to save a buck. This is fun, isn't it?

From your link, I actually only know of Traci Lords, and that's from her post-porn career. Again, your assertion of "people you do know" is nothing more than trying to assume I am a porn addict with no actual convictions, to try and make yourself superior. Swing and a miss.

Here are some other links you might want to check out:

[digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu]

[therichest.com]

[independent.co.uk]

[rawmusictv.com]

[opensocietyfoundations.org].

[hrw.org]

Finally, yes, we are talking about cam girls and online porn. Your argument against it was due to people coming out saying they regretted their time and it was traumatizing, and that makes it a net harm. That's fair. But do you also agree that religion is a net harm then, as the same logic can be applied to organized religion.

@JacksonNought How am I attacking your character by saying that porn and cam girls have no net value to society? The only way that this makes any sense that you would object to those terms and my opinion is if you are participating in the sex industry and your self-worth is wrapped around it having some sort of value.

If you are then say so and we'll have that conversation. Stop pussyfooting around.

If not, I would advise you that you will not have everyone approve of you in life and the sooner you get over requiring approval the happier you will be.

@ThomasinaPaine sex is less a commodity, than a currency; and sex is rarely about sex.

@ThomasinaPaine are you just being intentionally obtuse, or are you legitimately confused? How many times to I have to restate the same point?

You are not attacking my character by saying in your opinion there is no net value. Which I clearly just stated that even if I disagree with your opinion, you have the right to it.

You attack my character, and the character of anyone in the "value" position, when you make these claims:

"All pretend to have some lofty philosophical reason why sex work should be allowed but the truth is they just want a cheap and commitment free way get their nut. Gentlemen, just say that you don't want anyone to cancel your ability to beat off to choking videos on porn hub and call it a day."

"Just don't pretend there's some great moral or philosophical component to the support for this peculiar institution."

"you waste hours of your life in voyeurism"

"they say this because they want to believe that is true the same way the six year old knows there is no Santa but goes along with it anyway because they know they'll get more toys that way"

"You are so disingenuous. All I see is a tantrum being thrown because I won't support the validity of your hobby."

For the last time, where I take issue is your unwavering declaration that anyone who argues for freedom of privacy or bodily autonomy, or believes in any way shape or form that there are positive aspects to sex work, must be a lonely perverted horny masturbator with a crippling porn addiction.

Is that clear enough?

@JacksonNought

You said: For the last time, where I take issue is your unwavering declaration that anyone who argues for freedom of privacy or bodily autonomy, or believes in any way shape or form that there are positive aspects to sex work, must be a lonely perverted horny masturbator with a crippling porn addiction.

My reply: I am arguing for privacy and bodily autonomy. I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that I don't believe there should be laws against it ONLY that there is no net value which was, I believe, the question.

So you are presenting my argument to yourself and everyone else unfairly and in a way meant to lead people to the assumption that I am arguing against it's legality. I made general comments about the types of people who waste their money that way and you took ownership of that. That's on YOU. If you don't want people to believe you jack off to cam girls then say "While I do not financially support this industry others do" or something that excludes you from that category. IF you don't care if people think that then don't act like you care.

You said: Is that clear enough?

No, It isn't if you feel that I am arguing against your right to choose to spend your money where you please or theirs to sell their body legally as they please.

I think that your reactions are those of someone who is hurt that I don't agree with your choices. To that I say: so the fuck what? I can disagree with any or all of your choices and the same goes for you about mine. However, maybe you don't look at porn or pay for a sex show and to that I say: so the fuck what?

You're a grown human that doesn't need my approval just like I don't need yours.

If you take exception to my terms, well, what else besides "voyeurism" would you call watching a woman fuck a dildo? You're not taking part in the live act. You're watching it. So if you're going to be mad get mad at the dictionary.

@JacksonNought, @GeeMac Sex is only a currency when it is used to pay for something else. When you're selling "sex" and getting paid you just made it a commodity.

There are plenty of unhealthy relationships humans engage in with food, work, or other people. If there is a purpose to this life it is to make this life purposeful. I just don't think a society that puts a price tag on intimate human interaction is a healthy one.

It is those engagements that we cannot buy that is true currency.

@ThomasinaPaine I don’t want to be argumentative, but sex is a currency in many courtships, marriages, often in the workplace (even for high performers like Kamala Harris). It’s not at all unusual for men to seek an attractive sexual partner and quite common and sensible for women to want a good provider. I don’t know a single female friend or colleague who lists unemployment as an desirable attribute in a fiancée. For both men and women, sex is most definitely something of value that is often traded for something else.

Seventy-six year old Mick Jagger’s girlfriend is a hot 32-year-old ballerina. The currency is sex. I rest my case.

@ThomasinaPaine

@ThomasinaPaine and you are presenting my argument unfairly. I never said you are arguing against legality, you have made that clear and I respect that, and I respect your right to your opinion. I clearly said you are arguing that anyone who is on the "pro" side is a degenerate porn addict with no legitimate argument other than they want to masturbate. Why should I need to specify if I ever partake, and why should it matter anyway? Can someone not have a valid argument if they partake? Can someone who owns guns not have a valid pro-gun argument?

I have no problem with the words. I have a problem, again, with you throwing out baseless accusations in an attempt to tear down my argument. I honestly don't give a fuck if you agree with my opinion or not.

@GeeMac Or their currency is music. She is a ballerina and he is a musical composer. We do not know the ins and outs of their relationship.

@GeeMac, @JacksonNought

You said: I clearly said you are arguing that anyone who is on the "pro" side is a degenerate porn addict with no legitimate argument other than they want to masturbate.

By pro-you mean people who think that sex work and cam girls are some sort of benefit to society?

You didn't ask my opinion on people who feel it is a net benefit. I said that they are people who get their rocks off through voyeurism and that they don't argue with similar voracity for meth use. Both activities initiate using non-organic means brain processes normally used for activities involving human survival. While there are libertarians and anarchists who will argue that both should be legal as they are individual choices it is only with sex work that you see such outstanding defense of an activity with no real merit to society.

No one becomes a better person paying to watch someone perform a sex act. No, I'm not going to get into a typical net debate over whether there is that one millionth of a human who watches a cam girl and then goes out and donates his fortune to saving young girls from child marriage in Yemen. In general there is no end product, there is no betterment in terms of character.

It's like wasting a day playing Candy Crush. Sure you killed some time and put money into some development teams hands but nothing got accomplished and therefore no net benefit to society.

@ThomasinaPaine Oh, yeah. 76 and 32. I know exactly. 😂😂😂

@GeeMac You don't think she has richer and better looking men who have wooed her? I'll tell you this. Robert Plant is old as fuck but I'd do him in a hot minute, not for money, not for fame, not for anything but the hips and the music. I don't need to be paid. As I've said the best things in life are free. It's about a connection.

4

I drank too much coffee last night and so, as I was thinking about this question, I went ahead and read all the preceding comments. Wow. The sheer diversity and scope of the answers suggests to me that the question was not the one that most wanted to answer. Or that needed answering. So instead of trying to lash my impressions into a neat little argument, I’ll toss out my own set of diverse reactions to the topic I want to deal with.

The elephant in the room that no one wants to address is the male sex drive.

There—I said it. It exists, it’s not just a fact of life, it’s a force of nature. I lived in Florida for most of my youth, and every other year or so a hurricane would blow through and mess things up. More recently, in Dallas, I live a block and a half from the path taken by the tornado last October. Here’s what I know about a force of nature: you don’t have opinions about it; you prepare yourself for the encounter.

In this country, in particular, we have never been able to do that about the reality of men and their balls. Instead, we behave as though our opinions are facts and we work mightily to translate them into real-world results. And so, instead of simply recognizing that men are driven by sex in a way and to a degree that women are not, we pretend we can wish it away.

The time-worn “It’s a SIN!!” approach still holds a lot of power, although in this secular age it is more likely to be repurposed into “It’s a crime.” But at least those two responses acknowledge that it exists. Modern feminism has taken things much further by rejecting that notion outright, declaring the male sex drive, and men for that matter, to merely be a “social construct,” an inevitable by product of the patriarchy and thus in need of social engineering to remove all traces from the culture. But all three approaches agree in one respect: it’s a choice, they say, a bad choice at that, and our job is to remove that choice as an option.

It’s not a choice, it’s not a construct, it’s a product of evolution and owes nothing to gender identity. The truth is simple—BALLS MAKE YOU CRAZY. They don’t make you a rapist, but they do create an overwhelming drive. And from the moment our species began organizing ourselves into communities that required stable social structures, there has been an industry to address that need. It really is the oldest profession.

Ever has it been thus, evermore shall it be, opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. So I say leave the poor cam girls alone. There may be relevant issues to explore, such as the nature of the industry behind them, or the sex industry as a whole. But before you venture onto that bed of quicksand, drop your efforts at authoritarian control. Stop trying to tame the whirlwind. Check your opinions and assumptions. You want social constructs? That’s where you’ll find them,

Thanks @edgework for calling out the elephant. I just read a thread in another group claiming gender differences are “societal constructs”. 😂😂😂 What a load of crap.

Men and women are different right down to the biological level - and sex drive is the biggest difference of all. Woke-progressives refuse to acknowledge it, but there it is, looking right at us. Women can bear about one offspring a year, but how many offspring can a man create in 12 months? Get out the calculator. Men are biologically built to spread their genes.

Men view and approach sex completely differently from women, and that’s been true long before societies were “constructing” anything.

4

The over sexualization of society has us on a track to a Sodom & Gamorrah society. No thanks!!

@therealalyz based on your profile pic clearly you don’t need cam girls. Keepin’ it real baby!

4

To imply cam girls are a net benifit . Is a stretch.
But in a fair captilist , free market. ( Controlled) world . If there's a market. There's a supply., freedom.
I stress Controlled free market , because that helps eliminate the top heavy monopoly . At least put in restrictions.. Nothing's perfect , nothing ever will be. But somehow trying to push controls onto services you don't like or agree with . Youre no better than the tyrants freedom oposses.

@Thaw "build it and they will come" (no pun intended)

The reason the libertarian party has not been successful has nothing to do with a top down structure of economics. It has everything to do with a seemingly concentrated desire to do without law enforcement - or in the minds of the libertarians I have encountered "authoritarianism".

IMHO libertarians willfully try to dismiss the necessity for formal/legal maintaining of law and order. Somehow libertarians seem to believe that the people can regulate themselves. To me this is another way of saying "we're ok with an every man for himself" arrangement.
This is basically the law of the jungle. Might is right - the strongest dominate and weak can just die off...IMHO.

@Thaw Well said. When you have 4 banks that control the 147 companies the run the world, demand is already manipulated to the point where humans have the attention span and philosophy of a woodchuck.

4

Why such a desire to control other people?
Why can consenting adults not do between what themselves what they wish?
Why do you think we need to force our own personal moral standards onto others... Especially if this is done in the privacy of their own home?

What if I decide you worshipping your selected deity cause “net harm to society “?

Hanno Level 8 July 7, 2020

@Thaw somehow I suspect that if masterbation were really harmful to greater society we (the human population) would have collapsed into oblivion a very long time ago...jus say'n.
One of my favorite lines from the movies: Woody Allen in Annie Hall:

@Thaw
Excellent reply, Sir!

@Thaw
You mean like Finland where no one except a small fraction are all atheists...
Or you mean like the Netherlands where this has all been legalised and they have the lowest incidence of rape and sexual assault in the world, and yes the vast majority are atheists.

Or did you mean the most religious countries I the world where slavery still exist and woman are treated like property?

@Thaw, @WorldSigh

Of course neither of you have EVER slapped the banana a bit...

@Thaw one masturbation is sinful - millions of masturbations are what - a statistic? LOL
I'm pretty sure that masturbation has been going on with much greater frequency throughout humanities time of existence than you care to imagine.

@iThink
Not only that, it is well documented among many animals... female chimpanzees spends considerable time a day doing it... it was one of the first incidences notes of tool use among animals.
The researchers were too prude to publish it at first and the ant catcher was recorded first in writings... although later they confessed twigs were first observed being used for self gratification.

@Thaw

Yes,
That should be your concern... not what some lonely guy who cannot get laid does.

@Thaw just wondering - assuming you are male and that you developed normally as males do ...did you go to confession after your first wet dream?

@Hanno
You do seem to enjoy employing the straw man argument.
One final attempt at communication then.
The question posed by @Admin had nothing to do with your rights. We all agree that we all have the right to choke the chicken in the privacy of our personal screening rooms. The question up for discussion is this: "Are camgirls a net benefit or harm to society?"

@scotirishviet I used the joke - not the "Jew"...racist much? Hate Jews do ya...yes Woody Allen is a sexual deviant but that doesn't make the joke unfunny.

@scotirishviet I wouldn't block you in a million years...and I am not censoring your language. I'm saying the fact of his Jewishness was in no way relevant to the dialog and YOU brought it up - not me. Which I interpret to mean that you have a somewhat visceral problem with Jewishness. Otherwise why bring it up.

I like the dialog - the back and forth. we both say what we really think without fear of being censored. Challenging your speech is NOT the same as censoring you.

If you have negative ideas and feelings about Jews I invite you to share them.
Perhaps in a different post/thread but you have a right to say whatever you like about Jews, Blacks, Whites...just expect to get oppositional feedback pro and con.

I have noticed a LOT of people around here on IDW community who clearly do not like Jews - to put it kindly. I think that's a racist and illogical attitude. If that's what you believe fine but don't expect me or anyone else to ignore it. ok? 🙂

@iThink You realize Woody Allen is accused of having sex with his underage daughter and married a young woman he helped to raise. I hardly think he's a role model when it comes to healthy sexual relationships.

@ThomasinaPaine of course I know that - I am not defending Woody Allen. I used his joke/line from Annie Hall and someone else (won't mention her name) brought up Woody Allens Jewishness. The comments I made had nothing at all to do with child abuse nor Jewishness. Ok? 🙂

3

I’m a free market capitalist. If someone wants to sell their body, so be it. Who are we to tell them what they can and can’t do.

ZyThum Level 4 July 8, 2020

@Thaw Hmm. What if there were laws against exploiting children?

@Thaw Are we all to be the keepers of our neighbor's morality? Whatever people do in private, as long as they're not doing anything to harm others, is their own personal business.

3

Is it possible that it benefits and harms society at the same time? Could it be that porn is not inherently bad but lack of moderation is what is bad?

I can only speak for myself but as a young man, I was never into cam girls but more so regular porn films. From my teenage years and now that I'm 35, I've seen a transformation in pornography. The reach to have more and more shocking material has desensitized the masses and made taboo normal. As a teen, anal scenes were very few and now it's basically mandatory.

I think it is very complex to put a measurement of benefit, it just exists. The selling of sex will happen no matter what. I think the problem is that we are not honest with people on both sides. I've watched documentaries about porn and a common statement is that they didn't realize the negative stigma that will be placed on them, the shame that they would feel. I think anyone entering this field should be well aware of the negative stereotypes and views that they could face. I'm all for freedom to do whatever you want but you should be educated on the matter. I'm also for educating people on the potential dangers of too much porn and unrealistic relationships.

I think we live in a society that loves using womens body to entice men but we also have women that know this and use it to their benefit. Forget porn for a second, there are numerous women on twitch that don't take their clothes off but they levy the emotions of men needing attachment and their attractiveness to get money from them. They promote unhealthy male and female behavior. They are also promoting unhealthy male to female interactions.

Whether it is a benefit or not is only important if it effects you or people you know. Cam girls have never been my thing and even friends that I know that watch porn but for some it is. I don't know any current or previous cam girls. It's neither a benefit or negative for me as it doesn't clash with my life.

Some women actually enjoy being in the sex industry, I'm more concerned with the ones that don't enjoy it but feel that they have to be in.

We don't ask if the pharmaceutical industry is a net benefit or negative because it could be both. Drugs save peoples lives and also kills people. It exists because it is a necessity for some people. Porn of various types could be seen as necessary for both the porn creators and porn viewers. My issue is always with people on both sides going to the extreme on their content being created and the amount of content they view.

I think just like drugs, porn is way too addictive especially to a younger brain. I've been abstinent of porn for months but I was able to do it because I have regular sex with my partner. I don't feel a need to go back to it as I've been disgusted with the state of porn these days. It's way too rape-like, not sensual whatsoever and it's way more objectified than it was years ago. People are categories now and they throw them away left and right. While I personally find it to be on the edge of a net negative, I do understand that this is personal to me but it may be a positive for someone else for various reasons.

Makes a lot of sense @BlackoutNJ - there’s good and bad in everything, and in a free society we get to decide for ourselves. Do I object to camming? No. Would I want my sisters to do it? Again, no.

@GeeMac Exactly. It's not that simple to just give it a plain yes or no. I also don't know the benefits of a pornless society...a quick google search shows Iran and Saudi Arabia as examples.

@BlackoutNJ also bang on. Many people are commenting on the “evils” of porn. But, yeah, let’s talk about those closed societies where porn is suppressed. Those are the areas where real misogyny reigns.

3

If one's ill mind can't come to terms with the body it resides in, don't butcher the body to match the mind. Help the mind to accept reality.

Lt-JW Level 8 July 8, 2020

What does this have to do with the question at hand?

@JacksonNought
Obviously, nothing. But it’s funny so I give it a pass.

3

Porn in general should be avoided, but the necessity of free expression outweighs any benefits of restricting pornography outside of cp.

stone Level 4 July 7, 2020
3

Camgirls are definitely harmful to society. Porn addiction is very real. Endorphins released during masturbation have a similar chemical structure to morphine. And, like morphine, they activate the body’s opiate receptors. As with any addiction, it may lead to isolation and detachment from reality when used as a replacement for actual social interaction (sorry MGTOW fans, deep down you know it’s true).

Perhaps, the worst aspect of the online porn industry is the fact that there are basically zero effective filters for children. Anyone, with the basic ability to point and click, can access a plethora of any variety of porn, including free camgirl teasers. Does anybody really imagine that supplying millions of unsupervised and emotionally undeveloped, preteen, children with a limitless library of highly addictive, opiate receptor activating, virtual sex is not harmful to them, and by extension society?

Perhaps parents should be involved in their childrens' lives, and actually parent?

@JacksonNought
As much as I often disagree with you, you are spot on there.

@JacksonNought
In a perfect world, we would not be having this discussion. The reality is that millions of children surf the net inadequately or even completely unsupervised. The neural pathways, created and reinforced through habituation and artificial hormonal stimulation, may engender an adult population of good consumers (endorphin production is also elevated when making product purchases); however, lifelong addiction to an endorphin rush only serves to pad quarterly sales figures.

Hmmmm. Morphine...

@cRaZyTMG
Indeed

@JacksonNought Parents should parent but given that their influence extends to maximum 2-3 waking hours a day between the 40-50 hour work week required to afford a house, car, and a college education and the 4-5 hours a night of homework required for kids to attend a university I'm not sure where they have time to instill the same level of values they did when people were living in one room houses on the prairie and working the field together.

@ThomasinaPaine, @WorldSigh,

Why is this limited to camgirls or porn then? There are way worse things to see on the internet other than people getting naked. Heck, some of the things people post on this site aren't suitable for kids. There is so much hate, bullying, violence, and the worst of humanity freely available for any kid to stumble across online. And quite often the kids are more technologically literate than the parents, so they'll always find a way. It's no different than older times when you had kids sneaking out of the house, underage drinking, and smoking weed (and I assume they still do).

Why are we going after people freely engaging in commerce in a free society. It reeks of stone age prudishness, no different than trying to ban same sex marriage because "how will I explain it to my kids"?

@JacksonNought The question was about cam girls not children googling IED explosions. Should parents keep their kids from watching humans turn into confetti? Yes I would say that's probably a good idea.

That wasn't the question, tho.

2

Like anything else, there can be benefits and evils associated with it.

I think anytime an individual liberty is involved - and cam girls certainly are exercising such - that whatever harm that does exist it does is in the observer rather than the actor. In other words, the cam girl is getting a net benefit as is their customers while it is outsiders to that transaction that are claiming 'harm'. And yes, that applies to porn and prostitution too.

Should we try to mitigate that harm by infringing upon someone's liberty? I can't, and won't, justify doing so even if it appears (or is in fact) beneficial to society to do so. Society (the tyranny of the majority) can and often is an insidious evil.

It is neither a net harm or net benefit to society - it is a benefit to those whose liberty is not infringed.

2

This is a really tricky issue. While it does promote a relatively easy way for individuals to generate income and for others to relieve stress, it does also encourage this idea of on demand pleasure. I think it has helped some people get through hard times financially, but I also think it's spread this false narrative of general empowerment and glamor. That isn't always the case and it isn't always the right move for someone to make.

An addiction to the system can happen on both sides - the performer addicted to the attention and the consumer being addicted to the consumption. This can be dangerous, so I think that anyone involved needs to be very careful and hyper aware of all the potential consequences - depression, anxiety, addiction to the attention, coercion from consumers, harassment, doxxing, etc. Likewise, consumers of this type of entertainment are at risk of addiction, similar to gambling - financial hardship, difficulty forming relationships, psychological issues, etc.

Ultimately, I believe in free agency and allowing people to make their own choices. So, while it does present issues, I believe it should be treated and regulated similarly to something like gambling. Give people free agency, but they also need to be encouraged to handle everything responsibly. Most people don't take addiction to social media and/or pornography seriously, but we see this on the side of the content providers, as well as the consumers on a regular basis.

2

After reading all these comments, I need to go take a cold shower......

2

I can't wrap my head around people that think something could possibly be good as long as its making cash. This has to be the worst indicator yet people use it all the time. Wars make money too, are those good?

2

Net harm. For all the admonitions against capitalism from ANTIFA, TRAs, and BLM you'll note they all support sex work. Why would they do so when they are against worker exploitation? Because the goal isn't really to make an egalitarian society where workers prosper to first and foremost to make people willingly use the magic word "worker" to describe themselves. "The workers"..."sex workers"...working class. Individualism is scorned. Greatness is scorned. That is because wealth and greatness will always be set aside for a privileged few--even in their workers paradise.

The same people who are describing the evil ills of white colonialism are doing their best to replicate it with the sexual slavery of women and their servitude to men.

I don't disagree with your base statement but I wanted to add that we take away women's agency by calling them sexual slaves when they volunteered to take off their clothes. Unless we are talking about literal forced sexual labor, women throughout the world volunteer to be in the sex industry. They know there is a demand for it, they have the supply. As much as you would chose not to do it, someone else chose to do it. We could definitely encourage them not to but ultimately it's up to them. We had DARE programs in schools showing the dangers of drugs but kids still did drugs.

I think those organizations motives for promoting sex work has to do with building up their intersectionality victim cult. Trans people are over represented in the sex industry and while they try to use the sex industry as a point of complaint that Trans people feel they have to be in it, they also feel that they can't denounce it as it is the reality for Trans people. They are kind of talking out of both sides of their mouth. They will be quick to say that women are exploited in porn, which is true but won't denounce the sex industry as it is the employer for trans people.

2

Jill jilling off while reading 50 Shades is no different to Jack jacking while watching fake promiscuity. I'd suggest the government systems encouraging idleness are more of a problem.

2

Reading everyone's posts makes me wonder... why does "My body, My choice" never seem to apply to jobs like this?

ktpinto Level 7 July 7, 2020

Depends who you ask. In my opinion, it does.

One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

Probably because no one would like for their own daughter or sister...to be in a position (no pun intended) where "sex working" is how she pays her way in life.

Your body, your choice. The question is not whether or not you have a legal right to do with your body what you want but whether or not having fake sexual relationships is healthy for individuals or society. Paying for sex and paying for attention means that these things can be bought and therefore lessens their value. It is only those things which can't be bought: actual love, actual friendship that have any value in this world.

@ThomasinaPaine "Fake sexual relationships"? Why can't one be exclusive of the other? Sexual gratification is healthy and stress-relieving. Relationships don't have to be a part of it at all, besides as a financial relationship. As I've said before... it's a form of sales.
I also don't understand the concept of things can be bought and lessens their value. Doesn't seem to be true of jewels, cars, homes, art... Being bought at a DISCOUNT lessens their value. Being high priced and of high quality doesn't lessen the value at all. You pay more to listen to a better musician, read a better author, see a better play.. why would this be any different?
And again, this has nothing to do with actual love or actual friendship. Your first mistake is confusing and combining the two.

@iThink : Well, that's the fault of society. There is a big difference between being a prostitute and being a courtesan. Sex in the U.S. is considered dirty, vulgar, dark...
I've been interested in adult entertainment since I did a report for school about the history of prostitution. It's a skewed world we live in where something that releases endorphins, lowers stress, and is basically a form of exercise and makes people feel good about themselves and comfortable with their sexuality is considered bad...

@ktpinto Two consenting adults of either sex or same sex...should be free to do anything they care to do and if there is an exchange of money for the services rendered it's nobody elses business. But you know as well as anyone else that you drive through and around certain areas of cities - all over the world and not just in USA - you will see the proverbial "street walkers" and it is NOT a pretty sight to see. I do not agree that that is the fault of greater societies. The problem is multi tiered and very complex but you can't just lay that at the feet of "greater society".
IMHO legalization of prostitution along with well thought out and implemented regulations of prostitution would help those poor souls walking the streets and back alleys selling their bodies.
Having said all that I will point out again - nobody that I know would be happy to say anything like - "my daughter/wife/sister/mom/brother/son...made $150 thousand dollars last year doing "sex work"...
I venture to guess/presume you would not like to find out that your family member was making their living in that manner.

@iThink It's probably not best to assume. I am a professional Intimacy Specialist, with certifications as a relationship coach, love consultant and specialist. I worked three years at an adult store; I review adult toys on line. I go to conventions along the east coast to be an expert on adult themed panels. I write erotica. I was a webcam girl. My family and friends know all this and have supported me every step of the way. The part they aren't happy about is that I'm NOT making $150k a year...
And I can make it a LITTLE bit about society, since Nevada has the Bunny Ranch and that seems to be doing quite well. Making into a legal courtesan business would change things from street walkers to social elite... with variations in between, of course. Every version of business has variations.

2

Can't say for sure if that be a harm or benefit to society, but in what should be a free society any consenting adult should be free to pursue the career of their choice. I have a feeling even if there were laws in place to curb such, that type of work would continue on in the underground.

Replace "career" with "job" and I'm still hanging with your comment. Let's not pretend that cam girl is a career path. Do you think they'll still have steady income at it when they're over 40?

I don't believe in laws. Like at all. Good people don't need them and bad people will break them. I do believe, however, in teaching morality. I don't think that turning friendship, companionship, and sex into occupations does any good for society or the individual. It degrades the value of these relationships and reduces them to activities instead of something meaningful and profound.

What's next paying your dog to watch TV with you?

@ThomasinaPaine More like temporary career choice then, or job as you said, either one is fine with me.

Regarding the second part of your reply, for the most part I'm inclined to agree, but there are exceptions. Over the years I've personally known some individuals who did not have any sexual/companionship perversions and even so that didn't prevent their marriages from ending. I mostly agree though, sex work occupations don't exactly have the most positive influence on society.

1

I think people should be free to make their own choices. At least its safer than prostitution. Because no one wants syphilis I'm assuming.

Lilu Level 5 July 26, 2020

legalized and regulated prostitution will all but eliminate the risks of STDs in the business of prostitution.
The prostitutes would be required to have regular pelvic examination and testing and then issued a permit before they can "work" again. Miss your appointment and your permit will void pending compliance.

@iThink I can see the potential benefits of legalized and regulated prostitution but just because there are rules doesn't mean they can't be circumvented. The opportunity to make a lot more money by breaking the rules and exploiting loopholes will still exist as long as the benefit outweighs the risk. Losing a permit won't stop them from working. They'll continue doing what they were doing with a permit, without one.

@Lilu in order to remain compliant each "worker" would have to show up for their scheduled appointments. If they don't show then they are subject to be contacted by a social worker with some level of authority to determine if indeed she/he has been "working" and then to pay a fine and or do jail time.
You "regulate" the business by regulating to prostitutes. Working without a valid permit would carry high enough penalty as to discourage working off the grid as it were.
Anyone found out to have been or to be actively working off grid would also be subject to the same fines and jail time.
It's really for their own protection and "better" being (as opposed to "well" being) to work legally.

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