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62 8

Are camgirls a net benefit or harm to society?

Pay-per-minute or tip-based erotic cam shows have become a multi-billion dollar industry in the last 20 years with over 60,000 independent or studio models (note: about 30% are men/trans) currently employed worldwide. While top models make $25,000 or more per month, most make less than $1,000 depending on hours and their relative sex appeal (meritocracy). The camgirl business is also up 25% with many people forced home due to Covid restrictions and having time, and other things, on their hands.

While there are financial and safety benefits for cam models, the work is emotionally demanding and has downsides for both the models and society at large. What do you think?

The cam industry is...

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Admin 8 July 7
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14

Net harm. But I'm also against pornography and prostitution so...

It brings down society to a low, basic animal existence. Men can rise above being dependent on stuff like this. They can stop being Pavlov's dog of instant gratification. I know men will defend their right to access stuff like this, with the excuse that they just can't control their drive. I used to be a feminist, paradoxically being okay with these things back then. Now, all I can think of is the suffering that goes on behind the creation of crap like this. Paying into it only contributes to someone's suffering, even if many choose to go into this "field", some out of desperation. If there wasn't a demand, the industry would die. I'm not kidding myself, I know that people will always resort to it, instead of seeking out real relationships with a person. The entertainment industry is gearing society to think of detached sex as normal and healthy, when it absolutely is a sad, lonely and pathetic existence.

Puts tinfoil hat on: I'd say seeing how we are all being told to "stay home" and isolate ourselves, this industry is absolutely experiencing a boom. It's by design, to prevent real connection in person, real love and relationships is scoffed at because that leads to heterosexual tradtional marriage and procreation. And they don't want that because there are too many "useless eaters" to the elites. It's all about population control.

Well there is a reason that prostitution, and other aspects of the sex industry, are referred to as the "oldest profession in the world".

Also, "traditional marriage" used to be a man, his wife, and a harem full of concubines (prostitutes) for him to satisfy his urges while his wife was busy producing an heir.

@JacksonNought And I'm sure you wish you could have a harem too instead of dealing with that pesky love thing with one woman.

@scotirishviet nope, I've been happily married for several years, and always limited myself to strictly serious relationships. Promiscuity isn't for me, but that isn't to say it isn't for others, and they have the freedom to live their life how they choose with consenting parties. I also am straight edge - never drank, never smoked, never did drugs. I wonder how many people trying to shut down the sex industry partake in those other vices.

Just making the point that "traditional marriage" was not what many tout it to be these days.

@JacksonNought sorry which century are we living in, and what social class?

@RCGibb not sure what your point is?

@JacksonNought Good for you. But I think you're obviously like any other man, you want access to camgirls and online pornography for your alone time, which you should be spending it on your wife. I've been in relationships, all the men were porn addicts and it affected their performance because they spent themselves. Of course that would piss me off. So yes, people are free to do what they want to do, but in my opinion, it is not a net benefit to society for the reasons I've already posted in my own comment. It has consequences.

@scotirishviet at least we can agree on people being free to act how they wish. We will just disagree on what benefits or degrades society, as I am sure we do on many other subjects.

@scotirishviet as if girls and women don't masturbate. LOL

@iThink You're literally not "THINKING" are you?

@scotirishviet my brain never stops thinking - its a curse

@iThink Girls and women do masturbate. We don't require the sexual objects, male of female, to be choked, bound, gagged, or degraded in order to orgasm.

@ThomasinaPaine
Errr ... What!?
Why? Do men require being choked, bound, gagged or degraded?
I mean, I’m sure there’s a certain percentage but the same applies for women ... I had an on again off again relationship with one woman who liked being on both sides of that “play” ... the reason we were on & off is because I wasn’t willing to play but we got along quite well otherwise.

@ThomasinaPaine of course I know women and girls masturbate - have you gone back in this thread and followed my comments? Might be helpful if you're going to comment about my comments scattered in this thread. I never said women and girls don't masturbate and I'm pretty sure I never said anything about sex toys or other objects used for masturbation.

@Bay0Wulf [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

The nature of all addiction is progressive-- vicodin to oxycodone to heroin. Porn addiction has a progressive pattern as well.

[ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Addiction when it comes to behavioral addictions follows the same pattern: loss of control, continued behavior even when it comes to negative consequences, increasing time put to the behavior.

BDSM is one of the most popular types of porn and web cam activities because of the progressive nature of online addiction (and sexual addiction).

@Bay0Wulf, @iThink Nor did I say that women don't masturbate. What women don't do in anywhere NEAR the same numbers as men is go to watch men strip, sign on to see them masturbate online, etc.

@ThomasinaPaine Hmm, I wonder how many pending marriages have been called off because the Bride, Mother of the Bride, Brides Maids, and guests all got wasted at a Bachelorette Party and l got fucked and gave blow jobs to the male strippers...Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? I'm guessing thousands.

You can be pretty sure that of all the thousands / or is it millions of copies of 50 Shades of Gray sold were purchased by women...and the movie...weren't very many men lined up to see that movie I'm willing to wager on that.

Ever heard of "thigh Rubbing".

I wonder what the numbers are for annual sales of vibrators, dildos and other mechanical devices made for women to use in masturbation...
Just like farting - men do it openly and laugh about it - women do it on the sly and never admit to it...same with porn, infidelity etc. Women have as many sexual fantasies and engage in role playing sexually as much as men.

@ThomasinaPaine
Well, I wasn’t aware that the question was about “Addiction” and I have to admit I certainly wasn’t thinking of the topic in terms of that.
I agree that Addiction in almost any form is bad although there are a few which yield a positive result such as those people who are addicted to the endorphin rush created by physical exertion found in Gyms and various Workout Routines.

I’ll grant you that “Addiction” is most usually a Net Negative ... Alcohol, Gambling, Drugs (legal or not) and, that list is endless.
However, while it is certainly true that there are some percentage of people who are easily addicted or, become overly obsessed with many things, does that make those things a Social “Net Negative”?
I drink alcohol ... I have a collection that is based on Single Malt Scotches and Cognacs that is easily in excess of $3500 in value plus about 4 cases of assorted beers and ales. In any given month my consumption probably is equivalent to 18 “drinks” (1 drink being the alcohol equivalent to 1 beer). I can hardly be considered an “Addict” by consumption rates. In fact, were I to consider myself “Addicted” to any Beverage it would be Coffee and Spring Water (that I gather myself from a specific spring).

I am aware that there are many Alcoholics ... which I avoid being in the company of ... but does that make the availability of Alcohol a “Net Negative”? Remember, there were enough people at one time who focused on the “Net Negative” of Alcohol and made it Illegal and suddenly, MILLIONS of people who consumed alcohol were being told that, because of some people who couldn’t control themselves, EVERYONE Else had to do without.

Addiction is a lack of the ability to control oneself. It is a moral, mental or emotional failing of the person who is ... who allows themselves ... to be, “Addicted”.

At what point does that percentage of people become the reason that any particular action becomes considered such a “Net Negative” as to result in the “Removal of Access” for ALL?

I am leery of people who take a subject ... any subject ... and turn it into a conversation of “SOME People who do X are BAD, therefore ALL People who do X must ALSO be ... NOT GOOD”.
Interjecting the concept of “Addiction” into a conversation changes the entire conversation into one about “Addiction” rather than the merits or disadvantages of the Subject ... in this case, “CamGirls” which, apparently is being considered or relegated to “Visual Porn” in an effort to make it seem or sound “Dirty” or “Degrading” ...

I object to your changing the subject.

@ThomasinaPaine @bay0wulf @ithink I agree with you Thomasina, about the addiction aspect as part of the net harm to society. Everyone forgets that addiction to porn is indeed progressive, in that soon the viewer needs harder, more illicit, and degrading stimuli, often leading them into the ultimate taboos such as bestiality, scat, and cp. I'm also willing to bet that snuff is NOT a legend. We are talking about the disgusting state of humanity. Nobody will convince me those things are okay and there is no contribution to the sickness and suffering in society. Am I saying porn or camming should be banned? No, but it sure as hell better be stuck behind a paywall, with zero chance of access to minors. This is still supports our argument that all this shit is NOT a net benefit to society. It is indeed a net harm, especially considering the taboos I mentioned. If these degenerates want to say, "oh what people do on their own is their own business". When you say that, think of what went into making your fodder to get off. Legalizing it will not do anything. There will always be an underground.

@scotirishviet
So you too go to the question of “Addiction” which was not the question
“Everyone forgets that addiction to porn is indeed progressive,...”

Then you go from simple Viewing of the Female Form ... including perhaps Fantasy Acting ... to ... WHAT!?!? I somehow doubt the person who enjoys publications like Playboy or Penthouse or “CamGirls” suddenly wakes up and decides that some of the other things you list are “even better”.

“...in that soon the viewer needs harder, more illicit, and degrading stimuli, often leading them into the ultimate taboos such as bestiality, scat, and cp. I'm also willing to bet that snuff is NOT a legend.”

That leap of yours to ... scat ... I don’t know about “cp” ... and snuff ... is quite some jump.
There’s something actually wrong with your Logic Circuit.

@Bay0Wulf Nope, I'm making the argument about net harm. And you just keep denying pornography is addictive. Your precious, precious pornography and cam girls.

@scotirishviet
Yup you’re a bit twisted. You’re one of those that leaps to unsupportable assumptions.

I’ve never seen a “CamGirl” (no interest) I’ve rarely looked at “Pornography” in fact a careful look for an actual definition of “pornography” seems to depend on the publisher’s view on the subject.

Is “David” pornography? Is Venus pornography? Is the Mermaid in the Harbor in Denmark pornography? Where does “esthetics” end and pornography begin?

@Bay0Wulf Classical art is not pornography. And I don't give a shit if you think I'm twisted. That's just IDW version of an insult. I've had way worse shit said about me, so it's no skin off my back.

@scotirishviet
No ... not IDW version of insult ... my observation.
In fact I don't consider it an insult just a statement of the way I see your “Thought Process”.
Who am I after all that you should care what I think?
“I think thou dost protest too much ...”

@Bay0Wulf While I give you a thumbs up on your comment I will say the question on the post is about whether "cam girls" are a net benefit or harm to society". Addiction certainly would be one aspect of a net negative effect in this conversation.
I do appreciate the way you point out the fallacy in @scotirishviet s logic. It is an oft used error in logic.
I for one am addicted to caffeine - I drink a LOT of diet coke...never acquired a taste for coffee. But my addiction to diet coke is relatively harmless. I'll say this - I'm a LOT more sociable and calm when I get my "fix" than when I don't...LOL

Anyhow, I will say that if someone has allowed their "Porn" habit to develop to a point where they are paying Cam Girls then they probably do have a net negative problem. Just a guess but it is likely that consumers of Cam Girl content are probably already isolated and lonely and "over their heads" in the murky waters of sexual gratification.

Nevertheless, any transactional activity between consenting adults is nobody else s business.
I say don't be a "Karen" - stay out of other peoples personal lives and fix your own problems rather than nosing around in other peoples lives - other people who didn't ask your permission, don't want your approval and do NOT appreciate your interference.

Of course you do realize I am using the generalized greater "you" here. I am not referring directly to any persons here. k?

@Bay0Wulf David and Venus are statues. Playboy is pictures of the female form. Pornography is pictures of a sex act.

Sex is procreative. Intercourse is the end result of evolutionary progress in mammals. Some would argue that the creation of new life, although a mundane part of healthy biology, is also something very special. New life is formed by this single act. For that it ought to be, in my OPINION, owed some respect and not cheapened by making it a group project.

As a side note I would also say that farmers who nurture a field with sowing, fertilizing, watering, reaping is also performing an act which is also mandate but likewise deserving respect for its effect upon humanity.

Can anyone plant crops? Of course. Can anyone have sex? yes. Aside from the deleterious effects of cam girls and porn upon the psyche and physical health of the women I believe it further reduces the beauty and passion of the act because it turns something so profound into a cheap commodity.

Michelangelo lovingly sculpted the human form, carving, caressing, polishing to create a perfect image. I wouldn't dream of comparing an act of art, passion, and love to someone with a $10 silicon dildo and a webcam masturbating for random strangers.

One is an act of passion the other is a way to make money without leaving the home.

But again, spend your money where you choose and don't worry about me attempting to make it illegal. I'm not into laws.

@Bay0Wulf Before you assume that I'm one of those women who protests but doesn't cop to anything, I protest because I am a former 3rd Wave feminist who used to be just fine with this crap. I used to see what happens behind the scenes, so I know what goes on. Then I got married and had a child. Believe me, it's a lot of suffering. So kindly STFU, pervert.

@Bay0Wulf, @scotirishviet
I give you a thumbs up for your concern for "the children" where pornographic content is concerned. I know what snuff is but what is Scat and cp?

IMHO porn and prostitution are incestuous cousins and yes it would and does have a corrupting effect on young minds.

However, we all do know that in a global population in excess of 7.5 Billion human beings ( .1 percent of that number is still a very large number = .007 - that would be about 7 MILLION humans) right?
Who are socially isolated, lonely, undesirable, socially awkward and outcast - but you know what?
Even the most grotesquely disfigured, the most psychologically damaged, the socially inept social rejects all have one thing in common with YOU, ME and everyone else...and that is the very same set of basic needs and SEXUAL expression is one critically important human need - like eating, breathing etc.

I believe prostitution and porn offer some level of relief for those in need of an avenue toward sexual expression. At least they can be a "homerun hitter" in their imaginations.

Although I know that correlation is NOT causation I would be interested in a study that shows the correlations between depression, suicidal ideation and sexuality/sexual release or lack thereof.

Are people who habitually use porn depressed? maybe. Are people who turn to prostitutes already lonely and depressed before they go that direction? maybe.

Does the sexual contact and release relieve negative emotions - almost certainly but only temporarily I would assume (I am not an expert!)

@melco

9

Virtual prostitution? Yeah, I’m sure someone was posting this same pearl-clutching question in the 1950’s when Playboy magazine debuted.

This is an age where prostitution is valourized. Vancouver actually has a monument “honouring” prostitutes, who are now given the stigma-free title of “sex trade workers.” So I’d say regardless of any downside, and there are plenty, digital sex is at least much safer than street soliciting and physical contact.

And for me the poll smacks of sticking your nose in someone’s business. If people wish to engage in virtual prostitution form the privacy of their own homes, that’s their decision.

(The monument, below, by the way is a 15 foot high antique street pole topped with a large red light)

GeeMac Level 7 July 7, 2020

I think that monument is very cool! 🙂

The question was about is it valuable to society. It wasn't: should we make it illegal. It was asking if it had any value to society. The fact that people are reacting like a toddler having their wubbie taken away says quite a lot about the addiction to consequence and value free sex.

@ThomasinaPaine I’m not even sure if value is a worthwhile question. We could make an argument for or against anything: eating meat, welfare, video games. Outlawing drugs has failed to achieved much. In a free society — within reason — people get to decide for themselves, even when they choose to engage in harmful behaviour.

@ThomasinaPaine
“The question was about is it valuable to society. It wasn't:”
Whether or not it is an Addiction or should be viewed as such.

@Bay0Wulf Whether or not it is an addiction, whether or not it leads to sex trafficking--both with adequate research to say "yes", etc There is no net value to society. Individuals get their rocks off so it has value to the individual who masturbated but not enough value that he doesn't continue to need an image versus his own imagination.

[antipornography.org]

@ThomasinaPaine
So your answer is ... after everything ... “a net harm to society”.
Its good to live in a World where one may have an opinion ... no?

Still you associate it with “Addiction” and use several sources that validate your opinion to support your contention. You realize that makes it a pretty fallible argument as I could probably go out and dig up lots of contrary sources.

Or, I could simply point to thousands of “Women’s Books” like Harlequin Romance, Silhouette, Rosemary Rogers and ... even Playgirl and Cosmopolitan and wonder if their popularity wasn’t founded in pornography as well?

@Bay0Wulf I associate it with addiction for some, lack of economic choice for women (high inflation, changing standards of living, stagnant wages, etc), increasing internet usage and lack of outdoor appreciation, selfishness versus selflessness, inability to define value in any other terms than monetary, etc.

Yes. I think it adds no net value to society. I will agree that individuals may find some instant gratification from it.

7

Sexual desire is built into us only for the purpose of procreation. The further we move from this fundamantal undeniable biological truth, the more we treat our most base and addictive impulses as a cheap game, the more we undermine our personal health and the stability of our society, and the more vulnerable we make ourselves to outsiders who would like to destroy us.

Thaw Level 6 July 7, 2020

You're correct. I guess we should also do away with marriage and monogamy, as that goes against our base procreation impulses, and we should be going around having as many kids with as many different people as possible? And anyone who is infertile should be put in concentration camps since they provide no value to society.

@JacksonNought You fail to understand. I'm pointing out that any policy relating to sexual activity must begin with understanding of what the sex drive is. It is a stupid, animal urge, that can easily become a mindless addiction. Traditional marriage begins with that understanding, and is designed to channel sexual energy into productive and healthy behaviors.

@Thaw we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

@JacksonNought No room for disagreement. Every organism has the mindless urge to procreate. Rodents and monkeys get horny. If we want to be free and prosperous we can't be slaves to our base urges.

@JacksonNought LOL, how being against pornography and prostitution says we are against monogamy and traditional marriage makes no sense. That is exactly what we should be striving for, not debasing ourselves.

@scotirishviet using the logic of "sexual desire is built into us only for the purpose of procreation" then yes, we should "be fruitful and multiply". Human females gestate for around 9 months, while human males can spread their seed non-stop, so if we are using biological imperative here, then men should go around impregnating as many women as is possible to continue the species, and women should be nothing more than baby factories, consistently pregnant until they hit menopause.

Not what I believe, but what the "biology" argument leads to. However, if you are against prostitution / pornography, you must also be against gambling, drinking, overeating, social media, etc... anything that can lead to a dangerous addiction.

@JacksonNought But jacking off to porn or a camgirl is absolutely NOT impregnating anything but your hand. Note that I'm not a teetotaler saying men should abstain from using their imagination. I'm all for people using their minds more, instead of mindlessly jacking off and paying into massive suffering. Don't think this doesn't affect minors. (Edit: should not shouldn't)

@scotirishviet it's called capitalism, and it is what the US is based on. Someone has something to sell, someone is willing to pay for it. Free market and such.

Note that the large amount of suffering involved in the industry is due to criminalization. If a prostitute is assaulted, there is no way to adequately report it to the police without fear of prosecution on themselves. This is the same with drugs. Decriminalize and regulate, and the shady underground markets disappear.

@JacksonNought The point is not to submit to our urges, it is to classify them correctly.

I point out that the sex drive is just a mindless biological function because the assumption is typically that it is based on some kind of sublime emotion, or intellectual or creative urge, and therefore should not be suppressed. No, it is completely retarded, and felt just the same by retards, and when we submit to it, we are in a retard state, seeking strictly sensory, not intellectual or spiritual gratification.

@Thaw some people see sex as part of spiritual gratification.

@JacksonNought Those people must be really impressed with the enlightened state frequently achieved by rodents and farm animals.

@JacksonNought suffering happens even when it's legal, dude. You clearly haven't seen gonzo. Girls think it's "cool" to be a porn star, try to break into it, get chewed up and spit out. But who cares about a low functioning society that creates girls like this.

@JacksonNought Marriage and monogamy was not enforced by some top down religious institution run by men. Monogamy is the very LAST thing a male organization would push for. It was the end result, the last ditch effort to create a more stable and safe tribal society when the wolf was at the door.

@JacksonNought, @Thaw Have you heard of Maithuna lol?

@Ladybird96 Doesn't change the nature of the human sex drive.

@Thaw Nor does it change the nature of farm animals and rodents (I’ve never been in their mind but I’ve heard its WILD)

@JacksonNought Giving something a name like "capitalism" and "communism" does not automatically give it value. Enrichment and contribution are synonymous with "adding value" and types of valuables are: gold, gems, fine art, land. Value can also be something that is a bargain.

Of all these definitions cam girls fit only the definition of "bargain" as in you don't have to take time to find an actual girlfriend because you can share an image of one with 1,000 other people. Kinda like a cooperative or wholesale relationship only she doesn't actually have sex with you.

You continue to argue about laws when no one is saying it should be illegal or you try to make the argument that there is individual benefit without addressing any long-term benefit or value.

[antipornography.org]

You'll note that Traci Lords used to say she loved what she did. Many of the others, too. They didn't love it. They were trapped in it and faking their responses in old interviews the way they faked orgasms.

6

I think we should have another poll: Why does it bother you that other people won't support your addiction?

Have sex with prostitutes. Watch rape porn. Beat off on a sex doll. It is your life and your money.

Just don't expect people to support your addiction or approve of it.

I totally agree @ThomasinaPaine - Indulge in your addiction, but don’t cry “stigma” when people are repulsed by what you are doing. If you are into prostitution, porn or drugs, that’s your decision; but own it, and don’t expect everyone else to sign-on.

6

I think it's bad for men and the women. The men get a false sense of what woman are really like. The girls (who I don't feel bad for) have no skills, and age out of this.

I feel sorry for all those chumps who throw their money away to women who don't give a crap about them. Think of the children too, literally, whose dads are wasting money that could be going to their care. And of course the wives or girlfriends, who get ignored, because they are not illicit.

@scotirishviet I totally agree. I don't see how this is good for society at all.

I think it's bad all around. To substitute the passion that only exists when two people are together in the dark, naked and full of desire with a computer screen and your hand is just a sad indictment of modern society.

6

It is funny how we all jump up and down protecting freedom of speech, but god-forbid you do something in private that affects no one else but you and the supplier.

The fundamental question remains... who gives you the right to say what other people do?

Do they then have a right to tell you what you are to do or not?

Yet the same people who here who call out Marxist for telling them how to live their lives are the people telling others what they can and cannot do.

Any one able to spell hypocrite?

Hanno Level 7 July 7, 2020

Civil rights is not the topic under discussion. No one here is telling others how how they must live.
@Admin posed the question: "Are camgirls a net benefit or harm to society?"
Since, the internet brings porn of every variety into virtually every home, young unsupervised children are exposed to it. (See my comment below on how porn adversely effects children) This is much more than something you do "in private that affects no one else but you and the supplier." You have the right to indulge your appetite for virtual sex. This does not change the reality that camgirls are harmful to society.

To quote Paul "I may do all things but not all things are good for me." The question was about the benefits to society not whether social ills should be made illegal. I am not for drug laws but I wouldn't dare make the argument that heroin was good for individuals or society.

I've read through this entire chain but maybe I missed the comment who believes it should be made illegal.

People are allowed to have opinions on an industry and you are allowed to disagree and put money into it. What you aren't going to do, at least not with me, is shame me into supporting you by pretending I'm trying to prevent you from using your own money to jerk off. I'm not. Flog the log all day. Pay or not pay the cam girls. IDGAF.

What I'm saying is that there is no value to society--the question being asked. There isn't. We aren't better for cam girls. In fact, you could say that we are worse for it. Instead of learning how to have healthy relationships with a partner based off of trust, conversation, non-sexual and sexual activities people are wasting their time paying someone to act for them.

6

One of the goals for society at large is to rear and raise the following generations. The long term vision, as idyllicly pictured in the show "Parenthood," is to build a family that can weather the tragedies of life and promote a better future. This future, I believe, is also very fulfilling to the parents that create it. Not getting married, divorce, choosing not to have children, gender dysphoria and confusion, etc... are all things that prevent a would be parent from achieving this long term goal.

Obsessive interest in pornography has been linked to divorce in several studies.

@robblair like the thoughts. Just curious... what’s the deal with pic of Craig Nelson and folks?

@danscott He's showing an example of a large white family. It's a good thing.

@danscott Just a picture for illustration. Grandparents surrounded by their children and grandchildren at a great Thanksgiving feast.

@RobBlair wow. That family has a lot of actors. Are you sure it wasn’t a picture of all that auditioned for the relaunch of Coach?

@danscott - You are taking me off post. I watched much of the show and enjoyed it. That's not the exact image I wanted. There is one where they are sitting down to an outside meal, but thought it sufficed. Hate doing the race thing; It makes us all idiots. But if you prefer, I like this one too -

I look at this one and say Wow-those old people in the middle did all this.

5

Imagine having sex with a woman that adores you. She respects you and will back you up. That’s not a cam girl.

Imagine finding a woman who will actually do those things these days ... they are a rare commodity.

5

As I'm reading the comments I have to say that I am not surprised that the one area where men on the far left and far right find agreement against the horrible hypocrites in the middle--and that is any area where sex is made cheap and/or commodity. All pretend to have some lofty philosophical reason why sex work should be allowed but the truth is they just want a cheap and commitment free way get their nut.

Gentlemen, just say that you don't want anyone to cancel your ability to beat off to choking videos on porn hub and call it a day. Discussing the rights of humans to degrade themselves for money with more eloquence than when discussing a human's right to self-amputate a limb is telltale. You tacitly approve one and would rather not think of the other.

Sounds an awful lot like projection.

@JacksonNought Projection would be if I myself needed to engage in fake relationships. Hitting a bullseye with my comment sounds more accurate.

Look beat for dollars off until your dick falls off. It's your dick and their time. Just don't pretend there's some great moral or philosophical component to the support for this peculiar institution.

@ThomasinaPaine nah, sounds like projection. Or maybe someone chose porn over you and you were forever hurt, or you tried to break into the industry and failed and are jealous? Yeah, no way someone could advocate for equal rights and freedom of privacy and bodily autonomy, no they must all be white knighting to jerk off. No different than saying all Trump supporters are racist, no other reason they'd support him.

@ThomasinaPaine I agree with your sentiments Thomasina. The girls and their clients can do what they want, it has no significance in the greater scheme of things, except transferring money from one to the other.

@JacksonNought When you have to add a word in front of another word you're about to bastardize both. Social justice...sex work. Two concepts that have little to do with either sex or justice.

BTW, if you want to insult me please at least put some effort into it. Yours was the typical ad hominem response that happens whenever someone dares question the need for porn. I know this sounds really unfair to the incels of this world but women don't have to pay for sex.

But if it is any consolation we always have to pay for an oil change.

@JacksonNought, @Thasaidon I disagree. My very good friend operates a nonprofit that helps women who have been sex trafficked regain their lives by offering free therapy, job training, and medical care for the physical side effects of being used in the sex trade. The demand created by cam girls and strippers does correlate to sex work. Each year millions of underage girls are abducted and sold to meet the demand of (mostly) men who are sex addicts. Like most addictions it begins with something recreational and occasional and grows until they do seek out more and more illicit content and activities to fulfill the same drives within the brain that once had harmless cam girl interaction.

I am not going to tell grown adults what they can do with their bodies or money but I'm not going to put blinders on and pretend this is good for young girls and society as a whole.

@ThomasinaPaine I take your point but you have read something into my post that I did not intend.

When I was talking about CamGirls I was talking about women who started a webcam business on their own and of their own free will.

Women and girls who are coerced or forced into such work are in a real sense sex slaves and should be called that whether they work as "cam girls" or prostitutes.

@Thasaidon And I'm discussing capitalism and the theory of supply and demand. There are unintended consequences of laws, agreed? There are also unintended consequences of various industries, as well.

Desserts used to be something at the end of some meals. The industrial age enabled snack foods to go into mass production and lowered the price of sweets. The mass production of sweets is not evil but it made pop and candy so readily available and cheap that people over-indulged and developed a sugar addiction (look it up). The use of pornography and visual stimulation is linked to an increase in sexual demand.

Sex trafficking is an unintended but lucrative consequence of the desire for sex-on-demand (porn, cam girls, strippers, etc)

@ThomasinaPaine I take your point we were talking at cross purposes somewhat but I don't think we disagree by much. I always find your posts very interesting.

@ThomasinaPaine nice use of Shapiro logic there. My "ad hominem" insults are no different than yours, except I am assuming something about just you, and you are making sweeping generalizations about many people. Sure, why bother trying to debate the merits of someone's position when you can just insult them and assume their position isn't genuine and they are just mindless and horny? If you can't see any reason someone would advocate for people's freedoms other than trying to get laid, then I can only assume you've been hanging around the wrong people. It sounds like you are stuck in old gender roles and stereotypes, assuming all men are after sex, women can't do their own oil changes, whatever. Your incel accusation is pretty off base - every incel I have come across is actually against porn, as they are super conservative / traditional and think that women should be pure and virginal and only housewives and mothers, mostly from years of religious indoctrination.

Your friend sounds nice. It is good to have an advocate who helps sex trafficking victims. As I said before, a good way to help is with legalization / regulation. Much like prohibition, trying to ban and criminalize things people want will just lead to underground markets and crime. When you put a stigma and criminal penalties on prostitution, you make it harder for victims to seek help. When you pass laws trying to label escorts as traffickers, you force them to risk their safety. When you have cases like Chrystul Kizer, you punish the victims and not the abusers. I have close friends in the sex work industry, from people who sell pictures to strippers to full on porn actors, and everything in between. They are not victims, there is no shame in it, people can feel empowered by it, and it has nothing to do with past abuse or daddy issues or self loathing. Perhaps you should do more research on people with opposing perspectives. Look up Rebecca Crow and her campaigns for sex work advocacy.

@JacksonNought Against the Man--in Latin, a superior language, the phrase denotes a singular man. So, I assume for you to refer to my comment as ad hominem you are placing my comments upon your own shoulders rather than a generic statement. Not that I'm surprised you waste hours of your life in voyeurism, but its your life and your hours to waste. Unless of course you're doing that whole free thing then you're also wasting hers.

I'll repeat for--what is this--the 5th time (?) that I don't believe in laws. I am discussing the net benefit to society. There is none.

I don't know how many people say "I have tons of friends in the sex industry and they find it empowering"--they say this because they want to believe that is true the same way the six year old knows there is no Santa but goes along with it anyway because they know they'll get more toys that way. Jenna Jameson used to go onto Howard Stern and say how much she loved it how it made her feel empowered blah blah and now she says she was on drugs the whole time and lying.

My friend was in the sex industry before she became an advocate against human trafficking. She said that the self-loathing she experienced made her say to others that it was great especially those thinking about becoming a stripper because it made her feel less alone and less guilty for what she was doing. Why did she feel guilty? Because she was intelligent and it was a waste of that intelligence, because her responses to the men were fake, and because the owners of these clubs aren't women but men who take the bigger portion for themselves.

There are countless women who have left porn, stripping, and sex work who said the same things while they were in it because what the fuck else could they say:

Actually I hate this and it degrades me. I really thought I would make more money than this and now I realize I've been selling myself for not nearly enough to pay my rent?

And that is the truth. Free porn sites, tumblr, etc have made sex work less profitable so they work longer hours, make less money, and feel worse about themselves. I heard one former porn actress talk about how so many women got addicted to painkillers then onto heroin because the anal videos hurt so bad they give them painkillers to get through the scenes smiling. One of the women who works for my friend had to have surgery on her rectum and vagina.

There is no net positive. You say they are making money as if there is no other way in the world to do that with less risk and better pay. Glorify the septic cleaners--I'm sure draining shit for a living is just as empowering and they get paid 8x more on average.

@JacksonNought, @Thasaidon Thank you. I strive to be interesting.

@ThomasinaPaine go ahead and keep making your blanket statements, showing once again, perhaps for the 5th time, your ignorance. Go ahead and make broad assumptions and argue semantics and use petty insults to try and destroy someone's character and attack their motivations. It really says more about you than it does about me. I guess I'll just assume everything you say is a lie as well, you have no friends from the sex industry who experienced trauma, you do not have an advocate friend, you have no real anecdotal evidence, hell you really don't even believe the things you are saying - you just have an axe to grind about the industry for some reason and are vengeful and ranting on the internet about it as a result. See, I can make baseless accusations too, feels great doesn't it?

Sure, I have anecdotal evidence, you have anecdotal evidence, everyone has anecdotal evidence. Yeah, some people who left the industry claimed they lied and were on drugs and really hated it and what have you. I'm sure they did. There are also many people who were super evangelical Christians, but then they left Christianity altogether and attacked how harmful and abusive it was to them. So I guess we can say the sex industry has the same net benefit as Christianity?

Sure, some people get into it for the wrong reason, whether they are on hard times and see no other way to make money, or they thought they'd be making a ton of money and didn't think it through properly. Maybe we should work on a better society that doesn't force people to think they need to go into sex work to avoid being homeless and hungry. But then there are people who genuinely enjoy it, actually have a good living and don't feel degraded in any way, and they aren't lying when they say so. But I guess you will just assume they are lying no matter what because of your bias. I guess there is nothing left to say between us.

@JacksonNought You are so disingenuous. All I see is a tantrum being thrown because I won't support the validity of your hobby.

Anecdotal evidence is a term used when you are making an informal statement versus a court of law or research project. As I am neither researching the subject formally or going into a court room I am explaining that my opinions were formed by hearing countless women discuss what it did to them and their lives.

If you want to have a more formal debate regarding the increasing use of porn and online sex work as it pertains to public health where we actually use studies then I'm game for it. This is not that, however. So, yes, I will use my experience working with women who have come from that industry and my experience dealing with those in recovery from sexual trauma.

Since you wish to pretend I have no friends then here are some more anecdotal accounts from people you do know:

[antipornography.org]

As for the commentary on Christianity--why wouldn't you bring up people's experience with Christianity, Islam, Satanism, Buddhism, Progressivism, etc when discussing the net benefit of each? Only we're not discussing any of those. We're discussing cam girls and online porn.

@ThomasinaPaine I am the disingenuous one? Ha, that's a laugh. First, I never claimed it was my "hobby" nor did I express any investment in porn or the sex industry whatsoever - you are ascribing it to me because, once again, you can't possibly conceive of someone being for right to privacy and bodily autonomy unless they are pathetic horny men trying to get off. You can have whatever opinions you want when it comes to sex work, that is your right, whether I disagree with you or not. And yes, we aren't really talking about laws here, just whether it has a benefit or not, which we also will disagree on.

Where I take issue is in your attempt to attack the character of someone rather than the merit of their argument. Sure, you've tried to present a better case more recently, but your words still reflect your original unflinching claim that all proponents "pretend to have some lofty philosophical reason why sex work should be allowed but the truth is they just want a cheap and commitment free way get their nut" and that proponents should "just say that you don't want anyone to cancel your ability to beat off to choking videos on porn hub and call it a day". Once again, putting yourself above anyone who disagrees with you because they must be disingenuous and really after sexual gratification rather than freedoms. How would you react to using this logic with any other argument? I guess anyone who argues for guns really doesn't care about freedom or self defense, they just have a twisted macho fantasy and want to kill things for fun. I guess anyone who argues against wearing mask doesn't really care about freedom and forced obedience, they just want more people to die from the virus because it brings them joy. I guess anyone who defends a monument or a confederate flag doesn't care about heritage or history, they are really racists and they want the country to validate racism. I guess anyone criticizing the BLM protests isn't really concerned about rioting or looting or any other valid criticism, they simply want black people to die. I guess any organization which doesn't want to insure birth control because of religious reasons doesn't actually care about religious freedom, they just want to save a buck. This is fun, isn't it?

From your link, I actually only know of Traci Lords, and that's from her post-porn career. Again, your assertion of "people you do know" is nothing more than trying to assume I am a porn addict with no actual convictions, to try and make yourself superior. Swing and a miss.

Here are some other links you might want to check out:

[digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu]

[therichest.com]

[independent.co.uk]

[rawmusictv.com]

[opensocietyfoundations.org].

[hrw.org]

Finally, yes, we are talking about cam girls and online porn. Your argument against it was due to people coming out saying they regretted their time and it was traumatizing, and that makes it a net harm. That's fair. But do you also agree that religion is a net harm then, as the same logic can be applied to organized religion.

@JacksonNought How am I attacking your character by saying that porn and cam girls have no net value to society? The only way that this makes any sense that you would object to those terms and my opinion is if you are participating in the sex industry and your self-worth is wrapped around it having some sort of value.

If you are then say so and we'll have that conversation. Stop pussyfooting around.

If not, I would advise you that you will not have everyone approve of you in life and the sooner you get over requiring approval the happier you will be.

@ThomasinaPaine sex is less a commodity, than a currency; and sex is rarely about sex.

@ThomasinaPaine are you just being intentionally obtuse, or are you legitimately confused? How many times to I have to restate the same point?

You are not attacking my character by saying in your opinion there is no net value. Which I clearly just stated that even if I disagree with your opinion, you have the right to it.

You attack my character, and the character of anyone in the "value" position, when you make these claims:

"All pretend to have some lofty philosophical reason why sex work should be allowed but the truth is they just want a cheap and commitment free way get their nut. Gentlemen, just say that you don't want anyone to cancel your ability to beat off to choking videos on porn hub and call it a day."

"Just don't pretend there's some great moral or philosophical component to the support for this peculiar institution."

"you waste hours of your life in voyeurism"

"they say this because they want to believe that is true the same way the six year old knows there is no Santa but goes along with it anyway because they know they'll get more toys that way"

"You are so disingenuous. All I see is a tantrum being thrown because I won't support the validity of your hobby."

For the last time, where I take issue is your unwavering declaration that anyone who argues for freedom of privacy or bodily autonomy, or believes in any way shape or form that there are positive aspects to sex work, must be a lonely perverted horny masturbator with a crippling porn addiction.

Is that clear enough?

@JacksonNought

You said: For the last time, where I take issue is your unwavering declaration that anyone who argues for freedom of privacy or bodily autonomy, or believes in any way shape or form that there are positive aspects to sex work, must be a lonely perverted horny masturbator with a crippling porn addiction.

My reply: I am arguing for privacy and bodily autonomy. I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that I don't believe there should be laws against it ONLY that there is no net value which was, I believe, the question.

So you are presenting my argument to yourself and everyone else unfairly and in a way meant to lead people to the assumption that I am arguing against it's legality. I made general comments about the types of people who waste their money that way and you took ownership of that. That's on YOU. If you don't want people to believe you jack off to cam girls then say "While I do not financially support this industry others do" or something that excludes you from that category. IF you don't care if people think that then don't act like you care.

You said: Is that clear enough?

No, It isn't if you feel that I am arguing against your right to choose to spend your money where you please or theirs to sell their body legally as they please.

I think that your reactions are those of someone who is hurt that I don't agree with your choices. To that I say: so the fuck what? I can disagree with any or all of your choices and the same goes for you about mine. However, maybe you don't look at porn or pay for a sex show and to that I say: so the fuck what?

You're a grown human that doesn't need my approval just like I don't need yours.

If you take exception to my terms, well, what else besides "voyeurism" would you call watching a woman fuck a dildo? You're not taking part in the live act. You're watching it. So if you're going to be mad get mad at the dictionary.

@JacksonNought, @GeeMac Sex is only a currency when it is used to pay for something else. When you're selling "sex" and getting paid you just made it a commodity.

There are plenty of unhealthy relationships humans engage in with food, work, or other people. If there is a purpose to this life it is to make this life purposeful. I just don't think a society that puts a price tag on intimate human interaction is a healthy one.

It is those engagements that we cannot buy that is true currency.

@ThomasinaPaine I don’t want to be argumentative, but sex is a currency in many courtships, marriages, often in the workplace (even for high performers like Kamala Harris). It’s not at all unusual for men to seek an attractive sexual partner and quite common and sensible for women to want a good provider. I don’t know a single female friend or colleague who lists unemployment as an desirable attribute in a fiancée. For both men and women, sex is most definitely something of value that is often traded for something else.

Seventy-six year old Mick Jagger’s girlfriend is a hot 32-year-old ballerina. The currency is sex. I rest my case.

@ThomasinaPaine

@ThomasinaPaine and you are presenting my argument unfairly. I never said you are arguing against legality, you have made that clear and I respect that, and I respect your right to your opinion. I clearly said you are arguing that anyone who is on the "pro" side is a degenerate porn addict with no legitimate argument other than they want to masturbate. Why should I need to specify if I ever partake, and why should it matter anyway? Can someone not have a valid argument if they partake? Can someone who owns guns not have a valid pro-gun argument?

I have no problem with the words. I have a problem, again, with you throwing out baseless accusations in an attempt to tear down my argument. I honestly don't give a fuck if you agree with my opinion or not.

@GeeMac Or their currency is music. She is a ballerina and he is a musical composer. We do not know the ins and outs of their relationship.

@GeeMac, @JacksonNought

You said: I clearly said you are arguing that anyone who is on the "pro" side is a degenerate porn addict with no legitimate argument other than they want to masturbate.

By pro-you mean people who think that sex work and cam girls are some sort of benefit to society?

You didn't ask my opinion on people who feel it is a net benefit. I said that they are people who get their rocks off through voyeurism and that they don't argue with similar voracity for meth use. Both activities initiate using non-organic means brain processes normally used for activities involving human survival. While there are libertarians and anarchists who will argue that both should be legal as they are individual choices it is only with sex work that you see such outstanding defense of an activity with no real merit to society.

No one becomes a better person paying to watch someone perform a sex act. No, I'm not going to get into a typical net debate over whether there is that one millionth of a human who watches a cam girl and then goes out and donates his fortune to saving young girls from child marriage in Yemen. In general there is no end product, there is no betterment in terms of character.

It's like wasting a day playing Candy Crush. Sure you killed some time and put money into some development teams hands but nothing got accomplished and therefore no net benefit to society.

@ThomasinaPaine Oh, yeah. 76 and 32. I know exactly. 😂😂😂

@GeeMac You don't think she has richer and better looking men who have wooed her? I'll tell you this. Robert Plant is old as fuck but I'd do him in a hot minute, not for money, not for fame, not for anything but the hips and the music. I don't need to be paid. As I've said the best things in life are free. It's about a connection.

5

Satan will do anything to steal your soul

Hahahaha, what!?

4

I drank too much coffee last night and so, as I was thinking about this question, I went ahead and read all the preceding comments. Wow. The sheer diversity and scope of the answers suggests to me that the question was not the one that most wanted to answer. Or that needed answering. So instead of trying to lash my impressions into a neat little argument, I’ll toss out my own set of diverse reactions to the topic I want to deal with.

The elephant in the room that no one wants to address is the male sex drive.

There—I said it. It exists, it’s not just a fact of life, it’s a force of nature. I lived in Florida for most of my youth, and every other year or so a hurricane would blow through and mess things up. More recently, in Dallas, I live a block and a half from the path taken by the tornado last October. Here’s what I know about a force of nature: you don’t have opinions about it; you prepare yourself for the encounter.

In this country, in particular, we have never been able to do that about the reality of men and their balls. Instead, we behave as though our opinions are facts and we work mightily to translate them into real-world results. And so, instead of simply recognizing that men are driven by sex in a way and to a degree that women are not, we pretend we can wish it away.

The time-worn “It’s a SIN!!” approach still holds a lot of power, although in this secular age it is more likely to be repurposed into “It’s a crime.” But at least those two responses acknowledge that it exists. Modern feminism has taken things much further by rejecting that notion outright, declaring the male sex drive, and men for that matter, to merely be a “social construct,” an inevitable by product of the patriarchy and thus in need of social engineering to remove all traces from the culture. But all three approaches agree in one respect: it’s a choice, they say, a bad choice at that, and our job is to remove that choice as an option.

It’s not a choice, it’s not a construct, it’s a product of evolution and owes nothing to gender identity. The truth is simple—BALLS MAKE YOU CRAZY. They don’t make you a rapist, but they do create an overwhelming drive. And from the moment our species began organizing ourselves into communities that required stable social structures, there has been an industry to address that need. It really is the oldest profession.

Ever has it been thus, evermore shall it be, opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. So I say leave the poor cam girls alone. There may be relevant issues to explore, such as the nature of the industry behind them, or the sex industry as a whole. But before you venture onto that bed of quicksand, drop your efforts at authoritarian control. Stop trying to tame the whirlwind. Check your opinions and assumptions. You want social constructs? That’s where you’ll find them,

Thanks @edgework for calling out the elephant. I just read a thread in another group claiming gender differences are “societal constructs”. 😂😂😂 What a load of crap.

Men and women are different right down to the biological level - and sex drive is the biggest difference of all. Woke-progressives refuse to acknowledge it, but there it is, looking right at us. Women can bear about one offspring a year, but how many offspring can a man create in 12 months? Get out the calculator. Men are biologically built to spread their genes.

Men view and approach sex completely differently from women, and that’s been true long before societies were “constructing” anything.

4

The over sexualization of society has us on a track to a Sodom & Gamorrah society. No thanks!!

@therealalyz based on your profile pic clearly you don’t need cam girls. Keepin’ it real baby!

4

To imply cam girls are a net benifit . Is a stretch.
But in a fair captilist , free market. ( Controlled) world . If there's a market. There's a supply., freedom.
I stress Controlled free market , because that helps eliminate the top heavy monopoly . At least put in restrictions.. Nothing's perfect , nothing ever will be. But somehow trying to push controls onto services you don't like or agree with . Youre no better than the tyrants freedom oposses.

This libertarian nonsense has failed, because market demand can be created from the top down, by controlling which products get to market, and by ensuring the popularity of whatever is offered through propaganda campaigns. That is not freedom, that is social engineering.

@Thaw "build it and they will come" (no pun intended)

The reason the libertarian party has not been successful has nothing to do with a top down structure of economics. It has everything to do with a seemingly concentrated desire to do without law enforcement - or in the minds of the libertarians I have encountered "authoritarianism".

IMHO libertarians willfully try to dismiss the necessity for formal/legal maintaining of law and order. Somehow libertarians seem to believe that the people can regulate themselves. To me this is another way of saying "we're ok with an every man for himself" arrangement.
This is basically the law of the jungle. Might is right - the strongest dominate and weak can just die off...IMHO.

@Thaw Well said. When you have 4 banks that control the 147 companies the run the world, demand is already manipulated to the point where humans have the attention span and philosophy of a woodchuck.

4

Why such a desire to control other people?
Why can consenting adults not do between what themselves what they wish?
Why do you think we need to force our own personal moral standards onto others... Especially if this is done in the privacy of their own home?

What if I decide you worshipping your selected deity cause “net harm to society “?

Hanno Level 7 July 7, 2020

Because we are social animals and societies function on implicit roles and agreements. Standards of behavior develop because deviation from those behaviors has proved harmful to the group over time.

If you want to live in the woods, alone with your wifi connection, and masturbate yourself raw while having no contact with anyone else, and then die and be forgotten, fine. But if you want the benefits of a society with high trust and high productivity, family-orientation and civilized behavior must be the standards. Childless perverts erode the stability and goodwill of society.

@Thaw Yes! Well said. 👏🙌

@Thaw somehow I suspect that if masterbation were really harmful to greater society we (the human population) would have collapsed into oblivion a very long time ago...jus say'n.
One of my favorite lines from the movies: Woody Allen in Annie Hall:

@Thaw
Excellent reply, Sir!

@iThink There is a big difference between rates of masturbation in periods when people had to rely on their imaginations or porn that was relatively boring and hard to get, and the rates of masturbation in a society with an endless stream of over the top HD porn delivered right to you wherever you happen to be.

@Thaw
You mean like Finland where no one except a small fraction are all atheists...
Or you mean like the Netherlands where this has all been legalised and they have the lowest incidence of rape and sexual assault in the world, and yes the vast majority are atheists.

Or did you mean the most religious countries I the world where slavery still exist and woman are treated like property?

@Thaw, @WorldSigh

Of course neither of you have EVER slapped the banana a bit...

@Thaw one masturbation is sinful - millions of masturbations are what - a statistic? LOL
I'm pretty sure that masturbation has been going on with much greater frequency throughout humanities time of existence than you care to imagine.

@iThink
Not only that, it is well documented among many animals... female chimpanzees spends considerable time a day doing it... it was one of the first incidences notes of tool use among animals.
The researchers were too prude to publish it at first and the ant catcher was recorded first in writings... although later they confessed twigs were first observed being used for self gratification.

@Hanno Yes, the most religious countries in the world, which are vastly outbreeding, and colonizing and taking over, the atheistic white countries.

@Hanno Lol, yes I've had a beer. I am still opposed to a plague of alcoholism.

@Thaw

Yes,
That should be your concern... not what some lonely guy who cannot get laid does.

@Thaw just wondering - assuming you are male and that you developed normally as males do ...did you go to confession after your first wet dream?

@Hanno
You do seem to enjoy employing the straw man argument.
One final attempt at communication then.
The question posed by @Admin had nothing to do with your rights. We all agree that we all have the right to choke the chicken in the privacy of our personal screening rooms. The question up for discussion is this: "Are camgirls a net benefit or harm to society?"

@Hanno That is my concern. In our society, porn in its various forms is far, far beyond an outlet for a few lonely guys. Young people are becoming addicted, families are being harmed, people who could get laid if they could break away from the computer are wasting their best years. People who have the talent to achieve many things are losing their drive and focus.

This epidemic is possible because it is allowed to become normalized, by people like yourself, who have bought into libertarian free market/ individualism lie.

@iThink Of course you use one of the most degenerate Jews out there. No one is saying there's anything wrong with masturbation. We are just against pornography/camgirl/prostitution.

@scotirishviet I used the joke - not the "Jew"...racist much? Hate Jews do ya...yes Woody Allen is a sexual deviant but that doesn't make the joke unfunny.

@iThink What's racist about saying "Jew"? That's what he is, right. And please don't police my language with "say Jewish". If that's how it's gonna be here, then fuck this platform. If you don't like what I say or my views, block me.

@scotirishviet I wouldn't block you in a million years...and I am not censoring your language. I'm saying the fact of his Jewishness was in no way relevant to the dialog and YOU brought it up - not me. Which I interpret to mean that you have a somewhat visceral problem with Jewishness. Otherwise why bring it up.

I like the dialog - the back and forth. we both say what we really think without fear of being censored. Challenging your speech is NOT the same as censoring you.

If you have negative ideas and feelings about Jews I invite you to share them.
Perhaps in a different post/thread but you have a right to say whatever you like about Jews, Blacks, Whites...just expect to get oppositional feedback pro and con.

I have noticed a LOT of people around here on IDW community who clearly do not like Jews - to put it kindly. I think that's a racist and illogical attitude. If that's what you believe fine but don't expect me or anyone else to ignore it. ok? 🙂

@iThink You realize Woody Allen is accused of having sex with his underage daughter and married a young woman he helped to raise. I hardly think he's a role model when it comes to healthy sexual relationships.

@ThomasinaPaine of course I know that - I am not defending Woody Allen. I used his joke/line from Annie Hall and someone else (won't mention her name) brought up Woody Allens Jewishness. The comments I made had nothing at all to do with child abuse nor Jewishness. Ok? 🙂

3

I’m a free market capitalist. If someone wants to sell their body, so be it. Who are we to tell them what they can and can’t do.

ZyThum Level 4 July 8, 2020

What if the person is 12 years old?

@Thaw Hmm. What if there were laws against exploiting children?

@GaryMysels If you support those laws, then you admit that free market processes are secondary to moral considerations.

@Thaw Are we all to be the keepers of our neighbor's morality? Whatever people do in private, as long as they're not doing anything to harm others, is their own personal business.

@GaryMysels Yes, we must be the keepers of our neighbors' morality. If you don't want to be responsible to your fellow man, go live and die alone in the woods. If you want the benefits of a society, then you have a responsibility to help maintain that society.

Building and maintaining families has to be the central concern if we want our society to continue beyond the next decade or two.

Private activities manifest as public behaviors and policy preferences. If those behaviors and policy preferences don't create a political and social environment that encourages the building and maintaining of families, society starts to break down.

3

Is it possible that it benefits and harms society at the same time? Could it be that porn is not inherently bad but lack of moderation is what is bad?

I can only speak for myself but as a young man, I was never into cam girls but more so regular porn films. From my teenage years and now that I'm 35, I've seen a transformation in pornography. The reach to have more and more shocking material has desensitized the masses and made taboo normal. As a teen, anal scenes were very few and now it's basically mandatory.

I think it is very complex to put a measurement of benefit, it just exists. The selling of sex will happen no matter what. I think the problem is that we are not honest with people on both sides. I've watched documentaries about porn and a common statement is that they didn't realize the negative stigma that will be placed on them, the shame that they would feel. I think anyone entering this field should be well aware of the negative stereotypes and views that they could face. I'm all for freedom to do whatever you want but you should be educated on the matter. I'm also for educating people on the potential dangers of too much porn and unrealistic relationships.

I think we live in a society that loves using womens body to entice men but we also have women that know this and use it to their benefit. Forget porn for a second, there are numerous women on twitch that don't take their clothes off but they levy the emotions of men needing attachment and their attractiveness to get money from them. They promote unhealthy male and female behavior. They are also promoting unhealthy male to female interactions.

Whether it is a benefit or not is only important if it effects you or people you know. Cam girls have never been my thing and even friends that I know that watch porn but for some it is. I don't know any current or previous cam girls. It's neither a benefit or negative for me as it doesn't clash with my life.

Some women actually enjoy being in the sex industry, I'm more concerned with the ones that don't enjoy it but feel that they have to be in.

We don't ask if the pharmaceutical industry is a net benefit or negative because it could be both. Drugs save peoples lives and also kills people. It exists because it is a necessity for some people. Porn of various types could be seen as necessary for both the porn creators and porn viewers. My issue is always with people on both sides going to the extreme on their content being created and the amount of content they view.

I think just like drugs, porn is way too addictive especially to a younger brain. I've been abstinent of porn for months but I was able to do it because I have regular sex with my partner. I don't feel a need to go back to it as I've been disgusted with the state of porn these days. It's way too rape-like, not sensual whatsoever and it's way more objectified than it was years ago. People are categories now and they throw them away left and right. While I personally find it to be on the edge of a net negative, I do understand that this is personal to me but it may be a positive for someone else for various reasons.

Makes a lot of sense @BlackoutNJ - there’s good and bad in everything, and in a free society we get to decide for ourselves. Do I object to camming? No. Would I want my sisters to do it? Again, no.

@GeeMac Exactly. It's not that simple to just give it a plain yes or no. I also don't know the benefits of a pornless society...a quick google search shows Iran and Saudi Arabia as examples.

@BlackoutNJ also bang on. Many people are commenting on the “evils” of porn. But, yeah, let’s talk about those closed societies where porn is suppressed. Those are the areas where real misogyny reigns.

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If one's ill mind can't come to terms with the body it resides in, don't butcher the body to match the mind. Help the mind to accept reality.

Lt-JW Level 7 July 8, 2020

What does this have to do with the question at hand?

@JacksonNought
Obviously, nothing. But it’s funny so I give it a pass.

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Porn in general should be avoided, but the necessity of free expression outweighs any benefits of restricting pornography outside of cp.

stone Level 4 July 7, 2020

Fornication isn't free expression any more than defecating is free expression. It's a function of the body, not the mind.

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Camgirls are definitely harmful to society. Porn addiction is very real. Endorphins released during masturbation have a similar chemical structure to morphine. And, like morphine, they activate the body’s opiate receptors. As with any addiction, it may lead to isolation and detachment from reality when used as a replacement for actual social interaction (sorry MGTOW fans, deep down you know it’s true).

Perhaps, the worst aspect of the online porn industry is the fact that there are basically zero effective filters for children. Anyone, with the basic ability to point and click, can access a plethora of any variety of porn, including free camgirl teasers. Does anybody really imagine that supplying millions of unsupervised and emotionally undeveloped, preteen, children with a limitless library of highly addictive, opiate receptor activating, virtual sex is not harmful to them, and by extension society?

Perhaps parents should be involved in their childrens' lives, and actually parent?

@JacksonNought
As much as I often disagree with you, you are spot on there.

@JacksonNought
In a perfect world, we would not be having this discussion. The reality is that millions of children surf the net inadequately or even completely unsupervised. The neural pathways, created and reinforced through habituation and artificial hormonal stimulation, may engender an adult population of good consumers (endorphin production is also elevated when making product purchases); however, lifelong addiction to an endorphin rush only serves to pad quarterly sales figures.

Hmmmm. Morphine...

@cRaZyTMG
Indeed

@JacksonNought Parents should parent but given that their influence extends to maximum 2-3 waking hours a day between the 40-50 hour work week required to afford a house, car, and a college education and the 4-5 hours a night of homework required for kids to attend a university I'm not sure where they have time to instill the same level of values they did when people were living in one room houses on the prairie and working the field together.

@ThomasinaPaine, @WorldSigh,

Why is this limited to camgirls or porn then? There are way worse things to see on the internet other than people getting naked. Heck, some of the things people post on this site aren't suitable for kids. There is so much hate, bullying, violence, and the worst of humanity freely available for any kid to stumble across online. And quite often the kids are more technologically literate than the parents, so they'll always find a way. It's no different than older times when you had kids sneaking out of the house, underage drinking, and smoking weed (and I assume they still do).

Why are we going after people freely engaging in commerce in a free society. It reeks of stone age prudishness, no different than trying to ban same sex marriage because "how will I explain it to my kids"?

@JacksonNought The question was about cam girls not children googling IED explosions. Should parents keep their kids from watching humans turn into confetti? Yes I would say that's probably a good idea.

That wasn't the question, tho.

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Like anything else, there can be benefits and evils associated with it.

I think anytime an individual liberty is involved - and cam girls certainly are exercising such - that whatever harm that does exist it does is in the observer rather than the actor. In other words, the cam girl is getting a net benefit as is their customers while it is outsiders to that transaction that are claiming 'harm'. And yes, that applies to porn and prostitution too.

Should we try to mitigate that harm by infringing upon someone's liberty? I can't, and won't, justify doing so even if it appears (or is in fact) beneficial to society to do so. Society (the tyranny of the majority) can and often is an insidious evil.

It is neither a net harm or net benefit to society - it is a benefit to those whose liberty is not infringed.

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This is a really tricky issue. While it does promote a relatively easy way for individuals to generate income and for others to relieve stress, it does also encourage this idea of on demand pleasure. I think it has helped some people get through hard times financially, but I also think it's spread this false narrative of general empowerment and glamor. That isn't always the case and it isn't always the right move for someone to make.

An addiction to the system can happen on both sides - the performer addicted to the attention and the consumer being addicted to the consumption. This can be dangerous, so I think that anyone involved needs to be very careful and hyper aware of all the potential consequences - depression, anxiety, addiction to the attention, coercion from consumers, harassment, doxxing, etc. Likewise, consumers of this type of entertainment are at risk of addiction, similar to gambling - financial hardship, difficulty forming relationships, psychological issues, etc.

Ultimately, I believe in free agency and allowing people to make their own choices. So, while it does present issues, I believe it should be treated and regulated similarly to something like gambling. Give people free agency, but they also need to be encouraged to handle everything responsibly. Most people don't take addiction to social media and/or pornography seriously, but we see this on the side of the content providers, as well as the consumers on a regular basis.

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After reading all these comments, I need to go take a cold shower......

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I can't wrap my head around people that think something could possibly be good as long as its making cash. This has to be the worst indicator yet people use it all the time. Wars make money too, are those good?

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Net harm. For all the admonitions against capitalism from ANTIFA, TRAs, and BLM you'll note they all support sex work. Why would they do so when they are against worker exploitation? Because the goal isn't really to make an egalitarian society where workers prosper to first and foremost to make people willingly use the magic word "worker" to describe themselves. "The workers"..."sex workers"...working class. Individualism is scorned. Greatness is scorned. That is because wealth and greatness will always be set aside for a privileged few--even in their workers paradise.

The same people who are describing the evil ills of white colonialism are doing their best to replicate it with the sexual slavery of women and their servitude to men.

I don't disagree with your base statement but I wanted to add that we take away women's agency by calling them sexual slaves when they volunteered to take off their clothes. Unless we are talking about literal forced sexual labor, women throughout the world volunteer to be in the sex industry. They know there is a demand for it, they have the supply. As much as you would chose not to do it, someone else chose to do it. We could definitely encourage them not to but ultimately it's up to them. We had DARE programs in schools showing the dangers of drugs but kids still did drugs.

I think those organizations motives for promoting sex work has to do with building up their intersectionality victim cult. Trans people are over represented in the sex industry and while they try to use the sex industry as a point of complaint that Trans people feel they have to be in it, they also feel that they can't denounce it as it is the reality for Trans people. They are kind of talking out of both sides of their mouth. They will be quick to say that women are exploited in porn, which is true but won't denounce the sex industry as it is the employer for trans people.

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Jill jilling off while reading 50 Shades is no different to Jack jacking while watching fake promiscuity. I'd suggest the government systems encouraging idleness are more of a problem.

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