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What would you do, if anything, to change the criminal justice system?

I recently watched "13th", a moderately-biased documentary about blacks and the criminal justice system by Ava DuVernay, which was recently released for free by Netflix.

Taken on face value, the film does make the case that efforts to contain black criminality - both real and imagined - has not always been fair. While the Black Lives Movement says they want to defund or abolish the police department, it is likely that this is a negotiation strategy to gain public support for reforms (see Overton Window).

Do you think any changes need to be made? Would you shift funding away from the police to other services? Create no-go zones? Decriminalize drugs?

The criminal justice system should be

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Admin 8 June 15
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10

Okay ... Long Ago and Far Away ... I got my butt sent to jail ... and then a County Prison for a total of 127 Days. It took that long to Force Them to Throw Out the Case and Dismiss All Charges (They were trying to Force Me to accept a Plea Bargain ... one that They kept revising downwards until they got to something where I would “accept” Time Served and be let go ... It cost me an extra MONTH to make Them Throw It Out Completely.
I learned A LOT in there.
Life kind of Sucks when you’re inside but ... it mostly has a bunch of “rules” and you can do alright if you can “work” the rules ... not “obey” them exactly but not “break” them too obviously.

Jail and Prison isn’t a particularly wonderful place to be ... UNLESS ... You’re “used to” it OR You come from a place like Russia or the Eastern Block or China or ... In other words, if you’re from a place with REAL Prisons, Our Prison System is simply like a Military Day Care for Adults ... some of those guys called it a “vacation” and MEANT IT.

Our Prison System is an odd world. Its NOT difficult. Its NOT hideous. Its BARELY Punishment.
You have to understand that when the Worst Argument is over WHICH of the TWO TVs is going to have WHICH Basketball Game ... you’ve entered Alice In Wonderland.
There’s a pretty good Library. There’s an Outstanding Weight Room/Gym. The Food is bland but reasonable.
AND Of Course, there’s almost ANY Kind of “contraband” you can imagine. If you know how to “Trade” you can do VERY Well in a Short Time.

A lot of the people who are in prison got there young ... I don’t care what race ... if they got there young enough or stayed long enough they LITERALLY become more “comfortable” INSIDE than OUT.

There are too many “Rights”. There is too little Discipline. Its too Lenient. Its actually Too Easy a Lifestyle. Mostly, its just Boring.

Forced Labor, Hard Labor should be brought back.
Tougher Sentences should be brought back.
Time should really be spent MOSTLY in the Cell.
Behavior and Actions should be Strictly Controlled and Rigorously Enforced.

The MAIN Thing ...
PRISON Must be a Place where You DON’T Want to Go ... Where You DREAD Having to Be.
NOT Because You’re Scared Shitless of Other Inmates but because the SYSTEM is Almost Unbearable.

Nothings going to change until that happens.
NO Amount of “Social Work” or “Social Manipulation” is going to FIX the Problem.

Oh but all of your suggestions are "cruel and unusual punishments."

@Geofrank
Yes. I am very much aware that the phrase “cruel and unusual” has been extended to the mental anguish associated with being unable to getting a “proper pedicure” while incarcerated (obvious sarc)

8

The most significant reform would be to pull back the Great Society welfare programs, which accomplished nothing in the way of their stated goals, but which drove fathers from the home and replaced them with case workers.

A black middle class was already thriving in the early 60s. Coupled with the progress stemming from the Civil Rights Act and Voter Rights Act, the process of bringing the Black community into the mainstream could have been accelerated significantly. If Lyndon Johnson had stopped there, he might be viewed as a transformative president today. But his Great Society destroyed the black family and kicked the foundations from black communities.

You want to talk about the root cause of crime, look there. Fatherless sons are far more likely to become criminals. In the early 60s the out of wedlock birthrate among black women was 27%. Today it’s 70%. Reform all you want how we deal with criminals. Wouldn’t it be better to stop creating them in the first place?

Excellent observations Edgework! Those plus Affirmative Action abandoned the Constitutional protection of the rights of everyone, BECAUSE no one is special. As soon as anyone or group becomes special, The Constitution is lost.

6

As if the voters - most of whom have never read the Constitution, are well enough informed to conceive of a system of justice that has been built painstakingly for 200 years - as if it should be replaced ad-hoc because someone thinks there is something better without a trace of proof.

“We are living in a time when what works is being replaced with what sounds good.” - Thomas Sowell.

6

Think I responded to the same question on another poll post like this but here goes...

  1. End policing for profit. Remove all confiscation and forfeiture laws from the books, then make sure any money collected by law enforcement for any reason goes into the general fund for the city, county, state level of the agency that writes the tickets, and fines not to the department itself.

  2. Citizen boards alone investigate allegations of police corruption, and any instances where citizens are harmed or killed while in police custody rather than the departments policing themselves. The suggestions of these groups must have strong influence in the decision to prosecute any LEOs involved.

  3. Mandatory sentencing for LEOs convicted of crimes while on duty, or using their position for committing those crimes, such as extorting known drug offenders while on their own time but using the threat of arrest for getting the money they want, or what ever else...

  4. Harsher penalties for LEOs convicted of crimes.

  5. Charges of corruption for any officers, senior officers most importantly, who help hide police corrutpion with mandatory sentences upon conviction.

  6. A freeze on hiring former military for LEO positions. THere are plenty of government jobs where they can be pushed to the head of hiring line, but experience as a soldier, especially a combat vet, does not translate well into civilian law enforcement. There is already too much of an "Us versus them" attitude within law enforcement, add to that the mentality that everyone NOT wering the same uniform as you is an enemy with military vets then abuse becomes even more rampant. Most cops caught using excessive have, in the recent past, combat experience behind them and come onto the job with an alread hostile attitude towards those they are meant to police.

  7. Then, this would take much more time, but all levels of legal statutes need to be pruged of outdated, and simply wrong laws. As the audit of laws that re on the books is being done the first thing that needs to be done is having these laws measured against the Constitution. In many cases when some laws are found to be very much against Constitutional rule many other laws of the same nature can be gotten rid of without the same extensive research.

  8. Return to the original concepts of jury service. Now days juries are told they can only make a vote of guilty or not guilty based on the evidence given. Juries have a right to vote not guilty based on the idea that the law which was being violated is wrong. Jury nullification is a very important aspect of the jury system that allows the average citizen to have chance to strike down laws written by people who typically are not affected by the laws they write, but are laws which create unnecessary hardships on citizens.

And these are some of my hmble thoughts on the matter.

1 and 2 is a description of the common law. The rest appears to assume that the police can police themselves, which is clearly the problem, so...

Oh...I got to 8, so that is back to the common law.

"There has, probably, never been a legal jury, nor a legal trial by jury, in a single court of the United States, since the adoption of the constitution.
These facts show how much reliance can be placed in written constitutions, to control the action of the government, and preserve the liberties of the people.
If the real trial by jury had been preserved in the courts of the United States - that is, if we had had legal juries, and the jurors had known their rights - it is hardly probable that one tenth of the past legislation of Congress would ever have been enacted, or, at least, that, if enacted, it could have been enforced."

Spooner, Trail by Jury, 1852

Some reasonable ideas there. I'd be interested in your thoughts on how items 3, 4, and 5 would fly with police unions. I have mixed thoughts on number 6.

If anything is done that restricts either from my list or any other they will most certainly have total hissy fits, followed with some serious conniption fits. Cops do not like anything that restricts what they can do on the job. They will even het mad at the idea of taking useless and wrong laws off the books. The more laws there are the more reasons they have for stopping citizens and interfering with their lives.

5

Deport all criminals to their ethnic homelands.

4

Police and prosecutor's seem to be more interested in scalps than justice.

My son was arrested as suspect. It was an out of the blue event for my son, he was on his way to a medical appointment. The arresting officer was a contract with Teller County Sheriff's Department. He had a background with other agencies that included many sketchy arrests and tampered evidence. By the time it came to court the arresting officer was gone.

Fortunately my son married an attorney and Teller County Sheriff's Department was not prepared for her vigorous defense. The fact that he was a medically retired combat veteran, in nursing school, and innocent to boot made for bad optics. They dropped the case.

4

I think that until we have some proven effective alternative to policing as we know it today it would be short-sighted to just do away with police forces. Fear is a very capable deterrent to misbehavior. I don't suggest that we need to make the citizenry fear the police but rather fear punishment for breaking the law. Just look at the repeat offenders in NYC with the abolition of bail bonds. There is no fear of the courts. Imagine if we abolish the police force. We had better make sure that we have, to quote Robert Ruark, something of value to replace it.

Great response Geo. If we handcuff the cops, who is going to handcuff criminals?

3

I would try to convince these communities that culturally they need to teach themselves to take control of their own communities. Start punishing your own offenders at community level and raise your own standards! Stop hiding from the facts. Start with the knowledge that a black man is more likely to be killed by another black man.
Find this type of self promotion and build community spirit.
I would do the same thing in poor white neighbourhoods as well.

Rick-A Level 8 June 15, 2020
3

The first thing I would do is not on your list - I would utterly decriminalize recreational use of drugs. Treat it just the way we do alcohol. This would almost immediately put an end to the illicit drug trade (gangs cartels smugglers etc) and greatly reduce all of the peripheral crime related to "prohibited" use, possession, sale and purchase of drugs. Think of the billions of dollars we would save simply by permanently shutting down the DEA alone. Not to mention an inevitable and significant reduction on the court dockets across the land. It would ease pressure on prisons and jails as well.

iThink Level 9 June 15, 2020

Wouldn't decriminalization of drugs eliminate an income source to drug dealers and result in more theft/etc? (half joking). $50B a year for meth/cocaine: [rand.org]

@Admin it would definitely eliminate their source of income - taking the profit out of the 'hood dealers would take them out of the criminal system...poor guys will just have to go find gainful employment...
I don't think I suggested that decriminalizing drugs would totally eliminate crime. Certainly it would not.
Oh and one more thing I would do is legalize and regulate prostitution. "Working girls" and men would need to carry health cards and get checked for STDs on a regular basis but they would be a lot safer in such a system. Much less likely to be abused or killed by pimps and sicko clients. IMHO

I'm with you on everything except recreational drug use, even the legalization of prostitution. But I've had two friends lose their lives to heroin, two others who had their lives ruined by it, and I sat on the jury for a guy who was convicted of taking an ax to five people while high on meth. Pot is one thing, but some drugs are just too damn dangerous.

@iThink
The Portuguese system in other words.
However the damage meth and heroin does to you is not something you want to be legal though.
The Dutch seems to get it partially right by legislating prostitution and allowing ‘soft’ drugs such as LSD, Mushroom and pot.

@Hanno don't know anything about the Portuguese or the Dutch but if you can use alcohol legally why should drugs be different.
Its your body your life and I take no interest or responsibility for what you do with it.

The problem here is that by decriminalizing drug use you free up the flow and movement of the said drugs and governments have an addiction; as Ronald Reagan said if it moves tax it! Excess taxation severely hurt the legal cannabis industry in the West and thus the black market which was supposed to disappear has resurged because without taxes they are able to undercut the price of legal cannabis.

@Geofrank I don't see any problems with taxing drugs like everything else is taxed

If we legalize drugs we would need to come up with something else to serve the same basic function. Currently drug charges are often a way to lock up dangerous offenders, who have often made a plea deal to drop various other charges.

2

Decriminalize all victimless "offenses", including all vice.

2

I think the saying should be "-militarise" not defund even though it may be implied by some that demilitarization would occur through defunding.

2

The Conviction Factory, The Collapse of America's Criminal Courts, by Roger Roots
Page 40
Private Prosecutors
"For decades before and after the Revolution, the adjudication of criminals in America was governed primarily by the rule of private prosecution: (1) victims of serious crimes approached a community grand jury, (2) the grand jury investigated the matter and issued an indictment only if it concluded that a crime should be charged, and (3) the victim himself or his representative (generally an attorney but sometimes a state attorney general) prosecuted the defendant before a petit jury of twelve men. Criminal actions were only a step away from civil actions - the only material difference being that criminal claims ostensibly involved an interest of the public at large as well as the victim. Private prosecutors acted under authority of the people and in the name of the state - but for their own vindication. The very term "prosecutor" meant criminal plaintiff and implied a private person. A government prosecutor was referred to as an attorney general and was a rare phenomenon in criminal cases at the time of the nation's founding. When a private individual prosecuted an action in the name of the state, the attorney general was required to allow the prosecutor to use his name - even if the attorney general himself did not approve of the action.
Private prosecution meant that criminal cases were for the most part limited by the need of crime victims for vindication. Crime victims held the keys to a potential defendant's fate and often negotiated the settlement of criminal cases. After a case was initiated in the name of the people, however, private prosecutors were prohibited from withdrawing the action pursuant to private agreement with the defendant. Court intervention was occasionally required to compel injured crime victims to appear against offenders in court and "not to make bargains to allow [defendants] to escape conviction, if they...repair the injury."

Page 42
Law Enforcement as a Universal Duty
"Law enforcement in the Founders' time was a duty of every citizen. Citizens were expected to be armed and equipped to chase suspects on foot, on horse, or with wagon whenever summoned. And when called upon to enforce the laws of the state, citizens were to respond "not faintly and with lagging steps, but honestly and bravely and with whatever implements and facilities [were] convenient and at hand. Any person could act in the capacity of a constable without being one, and when summoned by a law enforcement officer, a private person became a temporary member of the police department. The law also presumed that any person acting in his public capacity as an officer was rightfully appointed."

The People's Panel
The Grand Jury in the United States, 1634 - 1941
Richard D. Younger

Page 3

"They proved their effectiveness during the Colonial and Revolutionary periods in helping the colonists resist imperial interference. They provided a similar source of strength against outside pressure in the territories of the western United States, in the subject South following the Civil War, and in Mormon Utah. They frequently proved the only effective weapon against organized crime, malfeasance in office, and corruption in high places.

"But appreciation of the value of grand juries was always greater in times of crisis, and, during periods when threats to individual liberty were less obvious, legal reformers, efficiency experts, and a few who feared government by the people worked diligently to overthrow the institution. Proponents of the system, relying heavily on the democratic nature of the people's panel, on its role as a focal point for the expression of the public needs and the opportunity provided the individual citizen for direct participation in the enforcement of law, fought a losing battle. Opponents of the system leveled charges of inefficiency and tyranny against the panels of citizen investigators and pictured them as outmoded and expensive relics of the past. Charges of "star chamber" and "secret inquisition" helped discredit the institution in the eyes of the American people, and the crusade to abolish the grand jury, under the guise of bringing economy and efficiency to local government, succeeded in many states."

Get the criminals out of government and stop thinking that they will do it themselves. Every single authority at law that will not indict and then try criminals in government are criminals in government.

  1. nonfeasance
  2. misfeasance
  3. malfeasance
  4. misprision of justice
  5. misprision of felony
  6. misprision of treason

Start at the top, go down from there.

2

Though as a citizen of a European country, I have never been in the USA, my overall impression of the police in your country is that it functions reasonably well. The problems are in the follow up after an arrest of a suspect. The hideous system of plea deals and a vicious habit of doctoring evidence bring many innocent people in jail. This is not solved by defunding the police department but by restoring proper practices. Also I'm not a fan of harsh punishments, the long jail times in the USA should be shortened. I understand that president Trump is trying to bring jail time down, which I think is reasonable.

Corjova Level 6 June 15, 2020
1

I'm in the uK so not as nuanced or as informed on the US crime and punishment system but from what Ive read no knock raids are in need of reform, almost 80% drug related and about 60% of them finding no drugs.

If suicide by cop is a thing then so can death by cop, if you don't like your neighbours then just tell a LEO that they are armed drug dealers. That at least is one line of enquiry.

1

Make fewer things illegal like drugs. The pharmaceutical companies will love that.

1

If you don't think it needs reformed look at Robert Mueller's career.

You really don't want to end up in a federal court.

wolfhnd Level 8 June 15, 2020

No you don't, so don't do things that put you there. It's meant to be a deterrent, not an invitation.

@DontbeanassO

What did Steven Hatfill do or Michael Flynn for that matter.

It's bad enough to be obviously wrong but being unable to admit it is a serious personality flaw.

Then there is the Boston marathon bombing. Tamerlan Tsarnaev and [his mother] Zubeidat Tsarnaeva came to the attention of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) based on information received from the Russian Federal Security Service. Mueller choose to ignore the evidence.

Washington isn't just corrupt it is incompetent. What should be obvious to even a casual observer our "intelligence" agencies seem unable to grasp. Often the same problem seems to plague state and local police as well.

It should have been obvious that Clinton came up with the Russian Trump hoax to divert attention from her and her husband's involvement in Russian money. It also should have been obvious that setting up Flynn wasn't a good idea but Mueller's buddy Comey did it anyway. The combination of stupid and corrupt is truly terrifying.

@wolfhnd Mr Hatfill and Mr Flynn got high profile jobs in emotionally turbulent areas, ended up in the wrong situations and, from a cursory Google search (as I wasn't in the States or following political or current events during these issues), at least one is them was exonerated.

Yes, people suck. They make mistakes, ruin each others' lives etc. It's unfortunately part and parcel of living in a society. Some people are selfish, someare selfless to a fault, some are lovely, some are plain messed up. Civilisation has never been perfect, nor will it ever be. All we're trying to do is keep the freedom to live as we see fit as well as we can and continue to improve the lives of our own. To expect anything different is folly. People's instincts have never, will never change, no matter what society we create.

I'm curious (and maybe I shouldn't ask as I may not want to know the answer) who are you accusing of having a "serious personality flaw" for disagreeing with you?

@DontbeanassO

Mueller 🙂

1

So here are my thoughts. It is statistically proven the majority of violent crime is black on black, which is where a lot of long prison sentences stem from. It isn’t from the drug offenses or other non-violent crimes, it is from the violent crime born from the non-violent offenses. For example, someone goes to steal a car they think is empty but is really occupied, you just went from a simple auto theft to a violent, and possibly deadly, carjacking. I also feel there is a severe lack of conflict resolution skills. You see stories all of the time of simple disagreements ending in violence, fatally all too often. You mean to tell me you’re going to end someone’s life because they called you a bad name? Or slept with you girlfriend/boyfriend? What in the hell could possibly be such an insult you feel the need to go straight to violence? Defunding the police or justice system isn’t the answer, the defenseless will suffer the most. I believe the answer for reducing criminality is rooting out the “code of the street” (or whatever you want to call it) culture. And it just isn’t among black Americans, it’s among the lower classes across all races. You visit the suburbs and just don’t see the conflict as frequently as you do in the inner city, regardless of race.

ZyThum Level 4 June 15, 2020
1

DuVernay is a artist who — like most woke-progressives — clearly and openly places ideology over aesthetics.

She works almost exclusively with other black artists, a luxury which would earn condemnation for a white director in the 21st century. My problem isn’t that she has an agenda. My issue is that she has such a pessimistic worldview, like an internalized hatred that finds fault (racism, sexism, inequity) wherever she looks.

GeeMac Level 8 June 15, 2020
0

There was a time in this country when "if you do the crime, you do the time" applied to the criminal justice system!!!!
The CJS, is now run and managed by "DO-GOODERS" and we are paying the price!!!!
Look at what is going on in Portland and Seattle if you don't believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Serg97 Level 8 July 27, 2020
0

Isn't the "Criminal Justice System" in Mrka actually a criminal profit industry?

0

I voted for expanded. With 77% of the black family households being single parent families and only a 30% marriage rate I believe efforts to reach out here and discover why this happening and ideas on how to correct this catastrophic situation would deliver positive results both economically and socially for the black community as a whole. This research and programs could then be applied to all communities regardless of race that suffer a disproportional non-nuclear family unit.

Folix Level 3 June 18, 2020
0

BLM shows that police need to be better trained so -funding the police is a bad idea if you want better trained police. I reckon the best solution is to pair an officer with a social worker as partners rather than cop to cop. This way the social worker can use social finesse when needed and the cop can help keep the social worker safe. Too many cops attend calls where social workers are needed and too many social workers are hurt on the job after poorly assessing the threats they face. This solution would be better for everyone

Dudely Level 3 June 16, 2020

BLM shows that Law Enforcement needs to get back to their jobs, and leave the social work to Social Workers!!!!!
Social Workers should not wear guns and badges, cops are not social workers!!!!!!!
BLM should be declared as a Terrorist Organization and treated as such, or let BLM continue as they are and you can prepare to live under Communism, your choice!!!!

0

Our justice system (US) is so convoluted that the answers available for this poll don’t really translate well in terms of fixing it. It’s mostly a result of a multicultural, low trust, divided society. Police accountability is something we need to see more of but the issue gets obfuscated when people make it all about race (and especially champion behind the scum bags that are the most violent as opposed to supporting murdered victims of no knock raids). Part of me thinks we should hire more intelligent people for police, so invest more in them, but if they screw up and cost the state or county millions, they should get a harsher sentence. Still, if people are going to riot when a cop has to defend himself because a thug is pointing a weapon at him, what are they supposed to do?

Change needs to come from within society. Stop glamorizing single motherhood, stop harassing people for going 1mph over the speed limit, stop importing third world immigrants, be able to voice your opinion on social media without being doxxxed or ostracized.

0

Yea, for those of you who want an expanded police force....

The Dems decriminalize crime and then don't prosecute blacks, the largest demographic of criminals, then cops don't chase them (Ferguson effect). This is how a police state is expanded. 1. There is too much crime because we don't have enough resources. 2. You can't arrest black people. The result is a bored cop on every corner looking for something to do and now they pick on you for doing nothing. This has been happening for over half a decade at an alarming rate. Also, YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT MORE OF THE TYPES OF COPS THEY ARE HIRING NOW.

As with most government institutions, the police force is full of waste and operated in a grossly inefficient manner. You never want expanded government.

RAZE Level 7 June 16, 2020
0

England was in the same type of criminal fix we were 150 years ago. Penal colonies was the answer.

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