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Could you debate a Marxist and win?

How well could you debate a Marxist on the validity of the Labor Theory of Value (LTV) and its predictions about capitalism, as espoused in Das Kapital volumes I-III?

Marxist_Ghoul 3 Apr 1
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The prediction that "voluntary exchange in an open free market" will cause a collapse in economic activity over time seems unlikely. It hasn't happend over the last 12 thousand years and with the strengthening of democratic institutions it becomes more unlikely every day.

A Free Market backed by Brytonic representative government create a self correcting system that avoids the problems Marx predicted.

You see that here ..... this site is proof

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The prediction that "voluntary exchange in an open free market" will cause a collapse in economic activity over time seems unlikely. It hasn't happend over the last 12 thousand years and with the strengthening of democratic institutions it becomes more unlikely every day.

Free Market backed by Brytonic representative government create a self correct system that avoids the problems Marx predicted.

2

No, you cannot win. You do not argue about religion

Yeah but, I can't help trying. Two posts today on the subject. 🙂

0

I know a bit about Marxism, I think I could hold my own for a while. One thing I've noticed about their arguments though, they are completely ignorant of economic facts.

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I'm not even sure they are wrong. I believe that capitalism is good at producing abundance. I also believe that according to supply and demand abundance reduces values. Thus if capitalism produces enough to make labor unnecessary (post scarcity) then capital will no longer have any value. In a post scarcity scenario, what remains is not a labor focused system, but a socialist one, where what matters is the need, not even the ability. To each according to their need, the end. Nothing needed from anyone.

But such a scenario isn't necessarily good either. Currently purpose is tied deeply to our labors, our contributions. After labor we will be free to self improve, or simply experience life however needed.

This isn't far flung, people that live autarkic lives (self sufficient) have all needs met by an established condition, such as the farmer that grows their own food, and lives off the land. There is in that situation still an amount of labor, but with technology as we already have it, the labor required is minimal. What do they do with their free time?

What would society do with minimal necessary labors? Work 4 hour work weeks and then hike, draw, read, study?

The Marxist has no importance here unless their time is spent laboring unnecessarily. Artificial scarcity and Monopoly of wealth would enslave such people such that they need to gain control over the means of production.

Such a scenario of artificial scarcity already exists. We have an excess of transportation and service labor which is merely mismanagement at best, but corrupt plutocracy at worst.

What measure of relation from the cost of living and the gross domestic production is observed at a common wealth level? How aware of our value in labor are we really?

I'm certainly not aware of it fully. As such, I don't think I could argue against marxists.

Your thoughts are interesting, ProgenitorGnosis. I, too, have wondered about how society will organize when wealth is being produced by robots. Economics is the study of the production, distribution and consumption of wealth. Capitalism and Socialism are two "economic systems". They differ in who 'owns' the "means of production" and gets to make decisions.

When I was younger, I didn't want to labor all day for my needs. So, I chose to reduce my "needs", so that I could have time to devote to avocational pursuits. I thought if I could reduce my need for income, or, at least reduce my "outgo", then that would mean I could pursue "life", which includes producing wealth, but also other interests.

Life is filled with wonder to be pursued. The reason I like capitalism is that it gives me freedom to pursue it without someone else telling me what to do.

@dmatic I think the main failing of Marxism in practice is that it needs to be coupled with adequate representation of the labor force, but it's possible such a thing simply cannot exist at scale. Maybe even at any scale.

Efforts made so far end up authoritarian since they are executed via centralized government.

@ProgenitorGnosis Socialism is about the "collective" and what some bureaucrat thinks is best for them and, of course, him/her individually. Capitalism is more about the individual, allowing him/her to make their own decisions. It is more freedom loving, except one does have to work to provide his/her needs. And, by working to produce something useful, the "collective" is also served.

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Depending on the willingness of the subject.are they available to new data? Can they process it and draw logical conclusions? Or are just gunna screech autisticly and refuse to articulate cogent points?

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Depends what you mean by "win." If you mean I might be able to change the person's mind, then probably not.

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If the debate were to be conducted in a grove in the woods of my choosing?
Really well.
I have a gun and the will to overcome their objections ...

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