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LINK Axiomatic Oughts

Found this video a while back, and the idea of axiomatic oughts still stands out to me as a brilliant idea. Sort of similar to Ayn Rand's natural rights ideas, but with more of a focus on addressing Hume's is/ought problem (which seems to be the leading factor in preventing any progress being made on the subject of ethics) and leaves enough room for social institutions to play a role in serving "moral" outcomes rather than delegitimizing them entirely.

What are your thoughts fellow IDW people?

Has the is/ought problem been sufficiently addressed?

Have you heard any better arguments?

Riffdiculous 5 Mar 23
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Wow, let me see if I can figure out how to frame a reply this video without writing a novel-length post... I probably won't succeed, but here goes.

This young man seems to be following a variant of the Consequentialist line of thought, "We do as we ought, not just out of duty, because we are supposed to in order to avoid negative consequences" which I agree with, as long as this is based on a solid example of an established set of values. He argues that we are somehow born with these values. Others may argue these values can be learned. I agree that we ARE born with this set of axiomatic values, but the problem remains is in how these values are explained to subsequent generations, whether or not they will have the motivation to choose to adhere to them as well as hoping that the rest of society is on the same page with us. As long as this choice exists, there will always be those who challenge these values and want to replace them with their own. Whether or not we do so depends on Character and Conscientiousness.

The question then becomes this: Are we born with "Conscientiousness" or is it a learned behavior? It's important to know this before trying to untangle this problem of how to instill the importance of this same set of values in later generations, let alone discern whether or not these values operate within another person. And what set of values are "good" if you base your values only on what you like VS what ticks you off? This seems to be what people are doing these days. Altruism is "good" as long as it doesn't make someone else angry, but even then, where do you draw the line of self-restraint if you walk over the rights of others to believe as they will during our own pursuit of happiness and meaning? How is it enforced? What do we do with those who refuse to comply? Do the Ends justify the Means?

The problem is that Life is and has always been about enduring suffering, getting through it, not the avoidance of it. We will all inevitably suffer from something at some point, even within our incredibly wealthy Western society where medical and technological advances have alleviated much of it. It's difficult for people in their 20s to absorb the need for a solid basis to stand upon when trying to teach a set of values to children or to others around them who have never seen a need for "traditional values." While our lives have become easier in the West compared to many other nations, the trade-off has become a loss of this sense of duty to anyone/anything other than ourselves.That makes Consequentialism difficult, as the religious sector of society has since found out. If a society sees no reason for salvation, how can you convince them they need it? Another trade-off of placing the preservation of Self above everyone and everything else is that we become Narcissistic as a society. Well, look around. We're already there.

As I've heard on other platforms: "Well, so what? Why is this a problem?"

How do you convince later generations that YOUR values are the "right" ones if they have nothing to base it upon? As C.S. Lewis put it, (paraphrased) how do we know a line is crooked if we don't know what to compare it to? You can teach a child to keep their hands away from a hot stove burner by letting them touch it just once. But since we don't want to inflict the pain of learning such a thing, especially upon a child, they will have to trust you and take your word for it. It's going to hurt. People learn through pain, loss and suffering. That's an unavoidable fact. But...A child will not believe you simply because you say "this is so." You expect them them to obey you because you are their parent, and they usually do. But what if society has finally undermined the authority of parents? How then can they learn by example when all of the usual examples have been knocked down by a new set of altruistic do-gooders operating under a decidedly different set of values? Hmm...

Do we then rely on the "village" to correct our children for us? Ostracize them, label them and banish them from the communal campfire until they change their ways? That tactic usually works, but people are all different individuals who can react to this treatment in any number of destructive ways if they lack the necessary character traits and the desire to fit in with society. That's usually how civil wars start.

Where does this desire to fit in come from and what to do about those free-thinkers who may disagree with the VIllage, go off into the wilderness, form villages of their own and then return later to invade yours? How do we know who will or who will not choose to take that route? There will always be people who feel oppressed because they can't always do everything they want. And now the problem has become "Why should they?" After all, people have been taught by our public schools, colleges and entertainment industry to Put Yourself First.

Can a certain set of values establishing morality be enforced with those who lack an "internal policeman?" It can, obviously, but you have to design an extremely oppressive system of laws to do so. Or, you can come to understand that all human beings are born with a flawed conscience, but with Free Will, the inalienable Right to Choose to adhere to the Law, fit in to Society -- or not to. You have to have an unassailable Moral Standard. You can learn to find that "internal policeman" who will guide your choices into the future. That Moral standard, at least in Western Society, was laid out and articulated as well as possible in the Bible. The "rock" upon which our society was built upon thousands of years ago. God is the internal policeman. Yet people reject any idea of God being that standard because they scoff at one day being Held Responsible for their actions. One can't get around this. We aren't blank slates, but these values have to be nurtured as well as enforced when nurturing doesn't work. Life is hard.

There is a Moral Standard written on our souls from birth, true, but who put it there? Ourselves, over the course of a million years? I don't think so, but whatever, that's just my opinion. We're all born with the ability to Choose, and as long as that exists, you will either regard or disregard the laws of society. You can have all the written laws you want, but without an unshakable Moral Standard to keep an honest person honest, or a template used to encourage a dishonest person to one day hold themselves accountable to, it is difficult to keep later generations from falling away from whatever standards Mankind decides to set up. You can either let them burn their hand on the stove and suffer, or you can teach them self-restraint. It is how we learn, but it's also how we learn to find the motivation to Serve Others - mostly out of love and not wanting them to suffer the same fate as previous generations. This is what has helped western society to keep from sliding into barbarism.

Yeah, that was too long. Oh well. Have a great day~

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